Late Night Ponderings: Going for a MSc or MBA, is it worth it?

[Asher]

Originally posted by SpencerH
So it seems as though some engineers are professionals but it also seems like its more of an increase in "grade" than an absolute requirement in order to work in that profession (at least for some types of engineers).

Now you're just pissing me off. Do the research.

It is a legal requirement in most western countries to be a professional "in good standing" to do your work. I know in Canada it is literally a crime for an engineer who is NOT a member in good standing of a professional engineer society (eg, not a PEng) to do engineering work.

I've even mentioned this already in this thread, so you've no excuse for your ignorance. Engineers are professionals, even by your narrow definition (needing a professional society to regulate).

"Scientist" is a term usually only applied to those of us with doctorates.

That's just bull****.

Scientists may have PhDs, but you don't need a PhD to be a scientist.

I've discovered what your problem is...elitism. The only "professions" are ones with a governing society, and even if they have a governing society they may not be "professions" because you've previously decreed them not to be. Further, "those of you" with doctorates are scientists.

Come off it. Real world is calling. Jump in.

[Jon Miller]

Actually, many people I consider scientists don't consider someone a scientist until they are a professor or research scientist at a lab.

That was a post doc who thought that, I think that students doing research and post docs are scientists also.

JM

[Asher]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Actually, many people I consider scientists don't consider someone a scientist until they are a professor or research scientist at a lab.

Those are called "professors" and "research scientists".

Scientist:

refers to any person that engages in a systematic activity to acquire knowledge or an individual that engages in such practices and traditions that are linked to schools of thought or philosophy. In a more restricted sense, scientist refers to individuals who use the scientific method.

[Jon Miller]

Eh, I don't think I would go that far. For one, I would say that the work you were involved with needs to be interesting (potentially publishable).

JM

[Asher]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Eh, I don't think I would go that far. For one, I would say that the work you were involved with needs to be interesting (potentially publishable).

JM

I'm not sure interesting subject matter is a criterion in the definition of "scientist".

[Jon Miller]

I think it most definitely should. Some guy is not a scientist if he spends his time trying to apply the scientific method in his search to find sasquatch.

I would additionally restrict science to only that which deals with the natural universe. This might well mean that computer scientists aren't scientists... but are rather closer to mathematicians.

JM

[Asher]

They pretty much are anyway.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Asher

Now you're just pissing me off. Do the research.

It is a legal requirement in most western countries to be a professional "in good standing" to do your work. I know in Canada it is literally a crime for an engineer who is NOT a member in good standing of a professional engineer society (eg, not a PEng) to do engineering work.

I've even mentioned this already in this thread, so you've no excuse for your ignorance. Engineers are professionals, even by your narrow definition (needing a professional society to regulate).

Here comes the real Asher.

I suggest you read your own post. In it you'll find a description of engineers and professional engineers. At no point does it say that in order to work as an engineer in Canada that you have to be a "professional engineer". It's a title.

Japher noted that ChemE's have a regulating society. I dont know whether engineers are generally considered to be "professionals" or not. I merely pointed out the correct definition and was willing to discuss it before one of your usual puerile responses.

That's just bull****.

Scientists may have PhDs, but you don't need a PhD to be a scientist.

You dont need a PhD to be a scientist. I just dont know any scientists who dont have one since it's virtually impossible to get funding if you're not a club member.

Vice Versa, not all those with PhD's in a scientific discipline are scientists.

As Japher has confirmed, the term "Scientist" is generally only used for someone who is at least a post-doc. The criteria is independent research. Those with BSc's and MSc's dont usuaully conduct independent research and are known as research assistants and/or research associates.

I've discovered what your problem is...elitism. The only "professions" are ones with a governing society, and even if they have a governing society they may not be "professions" because you've previously decreed them not to be. Further, "those of you" with doctorates are scientists.

Come off it. Real world is calling. Jump in.

I think I answered this tripe above.

Given the chip you carry on your shoulder, and your inability to learn from (or even listen to) other people with more experience than you, I think this farce is just a waste of our time.

TA TA Asher. Good luck with that adolescence thing.

[Garth Vader]

Originally posted by Asher

It is a legal requirement in most western countries to be a professional "in good standing" to do your work. I know in Canada it is literally a crime for an engineer who is NOT a member in good standing of a professional engineer society (eg, not a PEng) to do engineering work.

Well that's not quite true. It depends on what kinds of projects you are working on. As long as you have a PEng to sign off on projects that require one you can have anybody do the actual work.

The last engineering company I worked for we went quite a while without even having a PEng, although two guys were EIT's and got their PEng eventually.

[Japher]

AICHE is just a society.

Engineers are regulated by the state.

I will probably never need or get my PEng, because I will either work with one or hire one to review my designs.

I think a scientist is anyone who fiddles in a lab with science realted stuff. I don't put a degree level to it. If some has a PhD I generally call them doctor.

[Asher]

Originally posted by SpencerH


Here comes the real Asher.

I suggest you read your own post. In it you'll find a description of engineers and professional engineers. At no point does it say that in order to work as an engineer in Canada that you have to be a "professional engineer". It's a title.

Yes, it does.

You cannot put your name on engineering work in Canada without being a "professional engineer" (eg, licensed engineer).

The concept is not difficult. Why do you find it difficult?

I do not know how to make this any more clear. We have a regulating society for engineers that, by law, is required for anyone who wishes to perform public engineering work.

As Garth says, you can have non-PEng "engineers" that do some grunt work, but it needs to be analyzed, checked, and signed off by a "professional engineer". It is a legal issue in Canada, and I believe in the US as well.

As I've said, do the basic research. I've even provided you the links that you apparently refuse to read. Admit it, you are wrong. Move on.

Professional Engineer (P.E.) is the term for registered or licensed engineers in some countries who are permitted to offer their professional services directly to the public.

The term Professional Engineer and the actual practice of professional engineering is legally defined and protected by a government body. In some jurisdictions only registered or licensed Professional Engineers are permitted to use the title, or to practice Professional Engineering.

The earmark that distinguishes a licensed/registered Professional Engineer is the authority to sign and seal or "stamp" engineering documents (reports, drawings, and calculations) for a study, estimate, design or analysis, thus taking legal responsibility for it.

It is not just a title. Again, I have already said this and I cannot make it any more clear. Do you understand?

[Asher]

More links for the learning impaired PhD:

http://www.engineerscanada.ca/e/imm_incanada_1.cfm

In Canada, engineering is a regulated profession. This means that by law, no one can practise the profession of engineering without a license. Licensing is carried out by 12 provincial and territorial associations/ordre who set standards and regulate the profession. An engineering licence is valid only within that jurisdiction, however, there is a mobility agreement among the provinces and territories regarding transfer of licences. These associations serve and protect the public on behalf of their provincial or territorial government.

Once registered, or licensed, as a member of a provincial or territorial association, engineers are known as professional engineers and are eligible to use the designation "P.Eng." ("ing." in Québec) after their name. In Canada, it is illegal to practise the profession of engineering or to use the P.Eng./ing. designation without being licensed as a member in an association. For more information on Engineers Canada's Engineering International-Education Assessment Program (EIEAP), please refer to the Program Overview or contact Engineers Canada at evaluation@engineerscanada.ca.

Before being accepted for registration and licensure, individuals normally are required to write and pass a series of examinations set by the licensing body in the province or territory where they intend to reside. They must also demonstrate sufficient communication skills in at least one of Canada's two official languages, and have three or four years of acceptable engineering work experience, including one year of experience in a Canadian environment.

This means, this comment is wrong and so are all of your subsequent comments defending it:

Neither chemical engineers nor software programmers are "professionals". AFAIK, neither group has a governing "society" that determines whether or not you may pursue work in that profession. For example, a law degree does not allow you to work as an attorney, passing the bar does. Medical school does not allow you to work as a physician, medical board exams do.

Given the chip you carry on your shoulder, and your inability to learn from (or even listen to) other people with more experience than you, I think this farce is just a waste of our time.

You may not like it, but the reason I have a "chip on my shoulder" in this conversation is because I know I am right, I've proven I am right, and you still cannot comprehend it. It's amazing you even accused me as being the one not being able to listen to or learn from people with "more experience" than me. It's clear from your input to this thread that you only have more experience than me in bull**** and being stubborn. You certainly weren't right, in any case.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Japher

I think a scientist is anyone who fiddles in a lab with science realted stuff. I don't put a degree level to it. If some has a PhD I generally call them doctor.

We never call eachother doctor. Professor maybe, when it is appropriate.

JM

[Asher]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


We never call eachother doctor. Professor maybe, when it is appropriate.

JM

Doctor Jhon Millier

[Wiglaf]

I had sex with my doctor once.