Late Night Ponderings: Going for a MSc or MBA, is it worth it?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Japher
Asher, you're a tool. You are better than that, IMO, despite your arrogance. The arrogance is typical to your discipline, this gives you so much chance at success (meaning real bank) if you overcome it and learn to make money rather than earn it. And, you aren't going to learn that from a MS degree. Heck, most ppl don't learn that in an MBA class because they are a) too stupid, b) only care about the letters because work will give them a raise, or c) think an education begins and ends at a university.

Don't call me a tool because you don't understand context.

I'm referring to his question as to why I don't do both, and the answer is the economics of spending ~5 years in school doesn't make any sense. While you get a salary bump from having both MSc and MBAs, you also need to factor in the lost wages while you were slaving away earning those degrees and paying for them.

As I thought was very clear from the title, I am considering getting an MBA. It's what I asked about. That doesn't make me a tool.

What would make me a tool is to spend 5 more years in school getting both an MSc and an MBA.

I'm also of the opinion that MBAs are slightly overrated. I've worked with a couple guys who have them, and they do get paid more because of it but I don't think it's that substantial nor necessary. The only reason I'm considering the MBA now is due to the economic situation making it potentially worth my while.

I also don't believe learning ends at university -- anyone who believes that in computer science is in the wrong discipline. The field of CS moves faster than most others, and if you don't keep up you're left in the dust.

I do find it mildly amusing you think it's "arrogance" of people in "my discipline" when it is you that didn't take the time to obtain the context of this thread and my intentions.

Further, and I will say this pointedly in a British accent: you're obviously getting an MBA because you didn't really say much of anything in a full paragraph. I'm surprised you didn't discuss the synergy of CompSci and an MBA, provide a bunch of best practices and core competencies I should be giving my bandwidth to, and leveraging the MBA to gain mindshare at large, well-paying corporations.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Japher
It means that until Asher wakes up he's going to continue to be someone's beitch, in a business sense. The real way to business success is to become partners. If he's going to go back to school maybe he should go back to learn skills he doesn't have, like people skills.

Oh, please.

I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you?

In all seriousness, though, I do. Just because I don't put up with bull**** on Apolyton doesn't mean I don't know how to deal with people in a professional capacity. In fact, if you put your MBA to good use, you can look up personality traits of some of the most successful executives in the technology industry (and in business in general), and you'll see I exhibit many of them. Seriously.

His best option would be to get an MBA because that would send a message to employers that "despite having a technical degree I still want to learn the business savvy that leads to cash and/or success and/or helping people." That is what it says, and that is why people say it opens doors. And, to be honest, that is all it does.

You seem to think that is the only way to do it -- that's not true. I know many, many successful business people who didn't get an MBA to do what they do. My father started off in a technical discipline (civil engineering) and has been exclusively doing business and project management for one of the world's largest oil companies for the past 25 years. He manages multi-billion dollar projects, which is something I'm sure most MBA grads don't even do. He actually advises against me getting an MBA or going back to school in any way. He had also considered it around my age and decided against it, and he says the extra couple years of experience proving business aptitude and capability while working for the company served him better than colleagues who left to get MBAs for a couple years.

Thank you for your opinion, but it really shows the -- what's the phrase -- arrogance of the people in your discipline when you indicate that the MBA is "the way" to stop being someone's "beotch".

I can see some value in the MBA, but the truth is the value in the MBA needs to be balanced with the value of progressing my career in the real world. Honestly, some people probably don't need the lessons from the MBA -- a few books and some strong intuition can go a long way. Others will need to be taught. There's more factors here, MBAs aren't always the best choice.

Class dismissed.

[Apocalypse]

Why would it be 5 years? Many MBAs only take 1 1/2 or 2 years. Do MSes take 3?

[Jon Miller]

Some people take 3.

JM

[Asher]

Originally posted by Apocalypse
Why would it be 5 years? Many MBAs only take 1 1/2 or 2 years. Do MSes take 3?

It depends how you do the MSci. Some do 2, some do 3. It depends on the complexity of your thesis.

[Colonâ„¢]

What are the opportunity costs of long retorts?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Colonâ„¢
What are the opportunity costs of long retorts?

Nothing when they are done while watching TV. It's multi-tasking.

[Colonâ„¢]

There must be some when it concerns porn.

[Japher]

Started this after his first post"

Don't freak out man, nothing I said was an insult. I understand the context of your posts; I'm not stupid or anything.

I just don't think you should do both. Also, I think you should do the MBA, because if you don't you most certainly will continue to do the bidding/wishes of someone else; aka a tool. And, I said, you're better than that. <-- read that last sentence again.

Sucks that ppl get degrees and don't use them. Happens with undergraduate degrees too. Your guys who have MBAs aren't using them if it ain't substantial. I don't think MBAs are overrated, but maybe some of the idiots who get them are.

Arrogance and CS do go hand-in-hand, if you don't see that than you are blind. This may sound like a troll, but I hold this truth to be self-evident. An MBA will be wasted on you if you grate people in RL like you do here.

Synergy and your other psuedo-speak is stupid, it's real, but buzz words tune out those who matter.


Than I thought I'd refresh and saw this;

Thank you for your opinion, but it really shows the -- what's the phrase -- arrogance of the people in your discipline when you indicate that the MBA is "the way" to stop being someone's "beotch".

I can see some value in the MBA, but the truth is the value in the MBA needs to be balanced with the value of progressing my career in the real world. Honestly, some people probably don't need the lessons from the MBA -- a few books and some strong intuition can go a long way. Others will need to be taught. There's more factors here, MBAs aren't always the best choice.

Class dismissed.

The arrogance is beyond help. Good Luck in any choice you choose. Please never manage people, they will want to do bad things to you.

[Japher]

In all seriousness, though, I do. Just because I don't put up with bull**** on Apolyton doesn't mean I don't know how to deal with people in a professional capacity. In fact, if you put your MBA to good use, you can look up personality traits of some of the most successful executives in the technology industry (and in business in general), and you'll see I exhibit many of them. Seriously.

I actually believe this, and that's why I think an MBA will send the right message to those who can help you get into better positions. What kind of message will a MS send to the powers that be?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Japher
Started this after his first post"

Don't freak out man, nothing I said was an insult. I understand the context of your posts; I'm not stupid or anything.

I just don't think you should do both. Also, I think you should do the MBA, because if you don't you most certainly will continue to do the bidding/wishes of someone else; aka a tool. And, I said, you're better than that. <-- read that last sentence again.

Sucks that ppl get degrees and don't use them. Happens with undergraduate degrees too. Your guys who have MBAs aren't using them if it ain't substantial. I don't think MBAs are overrated, but maybe some of the idiots who get them are.

Arrogance and CS do go hand-in-hand, if you don't see that than you are blind. This may sound like a troll, but I hold this truth to be self-evident. An MBA will be wasted on you if you grate people in RL like you do here.

The only arrogance I've seen in this thread came from the MBA holder. It's truth.

You just called me arrogant for saying MBAs don't always make sense for people. That's pretty arrogant in and of itself.

Factcheck.org says check the mirror.

You do not need to be an MBA to stop "being a tool". At my company, both the CEO and the President have purely technical backgrounds -- one is a computer engineer, the other is a computer scientist. It's the same thing I see in my father's oil company management structure, engineering degrees and no MBAs outnumber people with MBAs of any sort. I do think they can help, but they are absolutely not required to get promoted to the point of being senior management.

I'm actually pretty upset that either you're lying to me, or you honestly didn't know that. I do understand the psychology behind you being a staunch defender of MBAs, given how much you're paying for one...but I'm trying to keep an open mind here and I know you're just feeding me a sales pitch that doesn't jive with reality.

[Japher]

You do not need to be an MBA to stop "being a tool". At my company, both the CEO and the President have purely technical backgrounds -- one is a computer engineer, the other is a computer scientist. It's the same thing I see in my father's oil company management structure, engineering degrees and no MBAs outnumber people with MBAs of any sort. I do think they can help, but they are absolutely not required to get promoted to the point of being senior management.

I'm not saying anything to the contrary.

I'm actually pretty upset that either you're lying to me, or you honestly didn't know that. I do understand the psychology behind you being a staunch defender of MBAs, given how much you're paying for one...but I'm trying to keep an open mind here and I know you're just feeding me a sales pitch that doesn't jive with reality.

Perhaps it's my fault, in that I should have refrained from saying anything I would think you would find offensive, but I stand by what I say, and it's not as a sales pitch. My primary stance for YOU, not anyone or everyone, going for an MBA over a MS is that you seem to be the type that will learn nothing from an MS. Seriously, what will you learn from a MS that you can't learn on your own or from enough experience? It's your field and you know it, you're a professional in it, and you can succeed as far as you wish without a MS because of sheer brainpower and know how. However, it will take time and experience. Whereas an MBA will give you a leg up now, why? Because it says you see (or are capable of seeing) the whole picture.

Don't think that not having an MBA says you can't or aren't capable of seeing that whole picture. It's just that an MBA says it, in three little letters. A MS doesn't say that, it says you are very, very strong on the tech side.

Yes, you may be a great manager or even a great leader, but you don't say that on paper. Also, you don't have the vocabulary, no matter how many books you have read.

All I am trying to point out is that which matters to the powers that be. And why it might not matter to rah or your boss or dad's boss it does matter out there to someone. Did your dad get further because a MS? Did your boss? Would they have sooner if they had gotten an MBA? What do they say?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Japher
I'm not saying anything to the contrary.

Then I'm sorry for misinterpreting your comments.

Perhaps it's my fault, in that I should have refrained from saying anything I would think you would find offensive, but I stand by what I say, and it's not as a sales pitch. My primary stance for YOU, not anyone or everyone, going for an MBA over a MS is that you seem to be the type that will learn nothing from an MS. Seriously, what will you learn from a MS that you can't learn on your own or from enough experience? It's your field and you know it, you're a professional in it, and you can succeed as far as you wish without a MS because of sheer brainpower and know how. However, it will take time and experience. Whereas an MBA will give you a leg up now, why? Because it says you see (or are capable of seeing) the whole picture.

Okay, that makes more sense to me. I apologize for going off on you, I just got back from the gym and was all pumped up and my usual subjects were nowhere to be found.

All I am trying to point out is that which matters to the powers that be. And why it might not matter to rah or your boss or dad's boss it does matter out there to someone. Did your dad get further because a MS? Did your boss? Would they have sooner if they had gotten an MBA? What do they say?

To clarify, neither my dad nor my boss have a masters degree.

My dad says the MBA would've been a mistake for him, as he did consider it when he was my age as well. Instead, he put his focus on the job and worked his way up pretty quickly by jockeying for management position then demonstrating his competencies with it. He thought the time and money spent getting the MBA would've simply set him back, experience-wise and fiscally. Instead he bought lots of books on management of people, projects, and financials and self-studied. That's something that somewhat appeals to me. Truth be told, the more I think about it the less I think both the MSc and the MBA may be for me.

While I did take CS in school, I feel I always got more knowledge from self-study. Well before I even graduated high school I was developing software in a variety of programming languages in my free time. I got books, I found online resources, and I made friends with people who could guide and provide assistance to me. I think I can take the same approach through self-study.

The problem is then, as you say, having the paper. I can tell them I could be a tremendous leader, but being able to be put in such situations is more chance than having the paper saying you could do it. I've managed a 6-person team for about a year already with nothing but positive feedback from all directions, but due to the current situation in the company and the market, there's no opportunities to go along that path any further right now. Beggars can't be choosers. We've got fewer projects now, so the senior managers get the management positions on that. (Disclaimer: None of them have MBAs from what I know, they were all "organically grown" from tech backgrounds, though my company may be an exception).

[Japher]

The problem is then, as you say, having the paper. I can tell them I could be a tremendous leader, but being able to be put in such situations is more chance than having the paper saying you could do it.

Sad but true. I think the next question is can you get the "paper" without he degree? Meaning, can you show that you are business savvy and capable without a degree? This, IMO, would require some risk on your part and a good head and some leads. However, if your partner is willing to help you financially it might be worth the risk. Starting something of your own will give you that clout, especially if it's successful and even still if it's not.

I would suggest finding a mentor, if you don't have one already. They can really set the stage.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Japher
Engineers have professional societies. ChemEs have AICHE and depending on your industry there are engineering societies specific to that industry. Apart from us being regulated by the State (PE, EIT, etc.) we do get screwed salary wise. Which is why I'm getting an MBA.

So it seems as though some engineers are professionals but it also seems like its more of an increase in "grade" than an absolute requirement in order to work in that profession (at least for some types of engineers).

Basic science majors are even more screwed, study hard and get paid crap. I was told the difference between an engineer and a scientist is $30k.

"Scientist" is a term usually only applied to those of us with doctorates. The comparison I think you are making is between those with a bachelors in engineering vs those with a bachelors in science.

I asked what the do I have to do to make that difference $200k. Turns out, what I am trying to do is just that.