Late Night Ponderings: Going for a MSc or MBA, is it worth it?

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by SpencerH
I spend every second I can telling my girls to become professionals and not to enter science unless they get an MBA and manage the science.

I wish somebody had told me that just got a BSc in Chemistry and yeah the pay for available jobs sucks, i was earning more in the part time call centre job i had paying my way through uni.

I wonder if it's possible to talk my way into joining an MBA a couple of weeks after term has started.

[Wiglaf]

I make millions of dollars, it's called kickbacks and dead rich parents, and I don't have a science degree. Not sure where that fits into anyone's pet theory but a BSc sounds like a made up abbreviation so that explains why it doesn't pay.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by snoopy369
A professional is someone who works for a living. Scientists are academics, who study things or otherwise increase the general knowledge but don't actually produce anything (directly or by managing people who do). Professionals are directly involved in producing a good or a service, and additionally requires substantial training (generally a college degree) to be defined as a 'professional'; ie, a factory worker isn't a 'professional' but a chemical engineer is. Yes, it's a dumb distinction, but there you are.

Computer Scientists are not professionals. Computer Programmers are (as are Software Engineers, Software Developers, or whatever else you want to call us). That's the difference...

Neither chemical engineers nor software programmers are "professionals". AFAIK, neither group has a governing "society" that determines whether or not you may pursue work in that profession. For example, a law degree does not allow you to work as an attorney, passing the bar does. Medical school does not allow you to work as a physician, medical board exams do.

[Asher]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Neither chemical engineers nor software programmers are "professionals". AFAIK, neither group has a governing "society" that determines whether or not you may pursue work in that profession. For example, a law degree does not allow you to work as an attorney, passing the bar does. Medical school does not allow you to work as a physician, medical board exams do.

Maybe things are radically different in Canada, but we have a concept of "Professional Engineers". To be a practicing engineer in Canada, by law, you need to be a "professional engineer".

I think your definition of what a professional is is very narrow. There are many professionals in many lucrative fields, even if it's not governed by a professional body. But in this case, they are anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer

Professional Engineer (P.E.) is the term for registered or licensed engineers in some countries who are permitted to offer their professional services directly to the public.

The term Professional Engineer and the actual practice of professional engineering is legally defined and protected by a government body. In some jurisdictions only registered or licensed Professional Engineers are permitted to use the title, or to practice Professional Engineering.

The earmark that distinguishes a licensed/registered Professional Engineer is the authority to sign and seal or "stamp" engineering documents (reports, drawings, and calculations) for a study, estimate, design or analysis, thus taking legal responsibility for it.

In Canada, regulation and registration are accomplished through a self governing body, that is given the power to register and discipline engineers as well as regulate the field of engineering in their province, such as Professional Engineers Ontario. Many of these associations are also responsible for regulating other related professions. The process for registration is generally as follows:

1. Graduate with a degree from an accredited program in engineering or applied science,
2. Complete an Engineer in Training program under the direction of a P.Eng. (This is normally a four-year program)
3. Review of work experience by the Association,
4. Pass a professional practice exam (essentially an engineering ethics and law exam).

Engineers are not registered in a specific discipline but are prohibited by the Code of Ethics from practicing beyond their training and experience. Breaches of the code are often sufficient grounds for enforcement, which may include the suspension or loss of license, as well as financial penalties and now, through recent changes to Canadian law, could also result in jail time should negligence be shown to have played a part in any incident in which there is loss of human life.

Engineers are not tested on technical knowledge during the licensing process; however, the accreditation of schools and their accredited degree granting status are tightly monitored and controlled. The Canadian system thus ensures that a specific and regimented curriculum is offered and tested with strict accordance to set national standards. This streamlines the overall licensing process and ensures a firm national standard on the quality of engineering in Canada. This accreditation process is governed by the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers through their active group the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board. The accreditation process is continuous and enforced through regular accreditation reviews of each school. These reviews typically include the review of the school's curriculum (including marked final exams and assignments), interviews of current students, extra curricular activities and teaching staff as well additional areas the visiting board may feel need addressing. The specific areas considered are Curriculum Content, Program Environment, and General Criteria. The associations are granted both an exclusive right to title and an exclusive right to practice.

There are only a few exceptions specifically noted in the acts and it does not include any "industrial exemptions". Therefore, a practicing engineer is legally required to be registered. The level of enforcement varies depending on the specific industry. The federal government is exempt from provincial laws, but in general the federal government will only give the title "engineer" to their employees who as part of their job requirements are able to be registered as a licensed Professional Engineer.

The iron ring typically worn on the little finger of a Canadian engineer is not a trademark of a Professional engineer, rather it is given upon completion of a bachelors degree in applied science or engineering.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Asher




Maybe things are radically different in Canada, but we have a concept of "Professional Engineers". To be a practicing engineer in Canada, by law, you need to be a "professional engineer".

I think your definition of what a professional is is very narrow. There are many professionals in many lucrative fields, even if it's not governed by a professional body. But in this case, they are anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer

Professional Engineer (P.E.) is the term for registered or licensed engineers in some countries who are permitted to offer their professional services directly to the public.

The term Professional Engineer and the actual practice of professional engineering is legally defined and protected by a government body. In some jurisdictions only registered or licensed Professional Engineers are permitted to use the title, or to practice Professional Engineering.

The earmark that distinguishes a licensed/registered Professional Engineer is the authority to sign and seal or "stamp" engineering documents (reports, drawings, and calculations) for a study, estimate, design or analysis, thus taking legal responsibility for it.

In Canada, regulation and registration are accomplished through a self governing body, that is given the power to register and discipline engineers as well as regulate the field of engineering in their province, such as Professional Engineers Ontario. Many of these associations are also responsible for regulating other related professions. The process for registration is generally as follows:

1. Graduate with a degree from an accredited program in engineering or applied science,
2. Complete an Engineer in Training program under the direction of a P.Eng. (This is normally a four-year program)
3. Review of work experience by the Association,
4. Pass a professional practice exam (essentially an engineering ethics and law exam).

Engineers are not registered in a specific discipline but are prohibited by the Code of Ethics from practicing beyond their training and experience. Breaches of the code are often sufficient grounds for enforcement, which may include the suspension or loss of license, as well as financial penalties and now, through recent changes to Canadian law, could also result in jail time should negligence be shown to have played a part in any incident in which there is loss of human life.

Engineers are not tested on technical knowledge during the licensing process; however, the accreditation of schools and their accredited degree granting status are tightly monitored and controlled. The Canadian system thus ensures that a specific and regimented curriculum is offered and tested with strict accordance to set national standards. This streamlines the overall licensing process and ensures a firm national standard on the quality of engineering in Canada. This accreditation process is governed by the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers through their active group the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board. The accreditation process is continuous and enforced through regular accreditation reviews of each school. These reviews typically include the review of the school's curriculum (including marked final exams and assignments), interviews of current students, extra curricular activities and teaching staff as well additional areas the visiting board may feel need addressing. The specific areas considered are Curriculum Content, Program Environment, and General Criteria. The associations are granted both an exclusive right to title and an exclusive right to practice.

There are only a few exceptions specifically noted in the acts and it does not include any "industrial exemptions". Therefore, a practicing engineer is legally required to be registered. The level of enforcement varies depending on the specific industry. The federal government is exempt from provincial laws, but in general the federal government will only give the title "engineer" to their employees who as part of their job requirements are able to be registered as a licensed Professional Engineer.

The iron ring typically worn on the little finger of a Canadian engineer is not a trademark of a Professional engineer, rather it is given upon completion of a bachelors degree in applied science or engineering.

Your post said it all

In Canada, regulation and registration are accomplished through a self governing body, that is given the power to register and discipline engineers as well as regulate the field of engineering in their province, such as Professional Engineers Ontario.

Gotta go back to work now

[Asher]

Not sure what point you are trying to make, but clearly there is a professional body for engineers.

[Colon™]

Re: Late Night Ponderings: Going for a MSc or MBA, is it worth it?

Originally posted by Asher
I'm debating going back to school for a MSc in CS or an MBA. I'm not sure which, or if it's worth it.

Not too optimistic about employment in the near-future ey?

[edit Why include so much more text in your post that I obviously wouldn't read?

[Apocalypse]

Serious question:

Why not get both masters?

[Asher]

Re: Re: Late Night Ponderings: Going for a MSc or MBA, is it worth it?

Originally posted by Colon™


Not too optimistic about employment in the near-future ey?

[edit Why include so much more text in your post that I obviously wouldn't read?

To provide context?

It's just uncertain. I work for a private company, I don't know its financial situation other than lots of people spinning in their chairs waiting for work right now.

I'm slated to go on a project starting next week so I'll be okay for a while at least. Just keeping the options open.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Apocalypse
Serious question:

Why not get both masters?

While I could "make" money doing the MSc from funding, MBA is a money pit. Even while I "make" money from funding for the MSc, it's a massive paycut from what I get now.

Further, the longer one wanks around in academia the less useful they become in the real world. I'd have nightmares of becoming an academic like Agathon, without a clue as to where the real world went and obsessed with Plato and my 500,000-song catalog of classical music.

[Apocalypse]

I am trying to decide if I want an MBA, MPA, or MDY personally.

I might get a combo of two. It'd be paid for. I was thinking of doing the first one from a good online program (one that costs $30k) while working and then going to a really good school physically later.

[Japher]

Engineers have professional societies. ChemEs have AICHE and depending on your industry there are engineering societies specific to that industry. Apart from us being regulated by the State (PE, EIT, etc.) we do get screwed salary wise. Which is why I'm getting an MBA.

My goal is VC, as I have stated here before. I don't know my route yet, but I plan on getting into entrepreneurship with my university after a graduate. Additionally, the company I am now working for is heavily involved with VC as I am now a consultant.

Basic science majors are even more screwed, study hard and get paid crap. I was told the difference between an engineer and a scientist is $30k. I asked what the do I have to do to make that difference $200k. Turns out, what I am trying to do is just that.

While I could "make" money doing the MSc from funding, MBA is a money pit. Even while I "make" money from funding for the MSc, it's a massive paycut from what I get now.

Asher, you're a tool. You are better than that, IMO, despite your arrogance. The arrogance is typical to your discipline, this gives you so much chance at success (meaning real bank) if you overcome it and learn to make money rather than earn it. And, you aren't going to learn that from a MS degree. Heck, most ppl don't learn that in an MBA class because they are a) too stupid, b) only care about the letters because work will give them a raise, or c) think an education begins and ends at a university.

[Kuciwalker]

Asher, you're a tool. You are better that, IMO, despite your arrogance. The arrogance is typical to your discipline, this gives you so much chance at success (meaning real bank) if you overcome it and learn to make money rather than earn it.

[Wiglaf]

What the hell does that mean? I have been sitting here trying to read that paragraph and understand it, and have even called an ex girlfriend and read it to her, and still nothing.

[Japher]

It means that until Asher wakes up he's going to continue to be someone's beitch, in a business sense. The real way to business success is to become partners. If he's going to go back to school maybe he should go back to learn skills he doesn't have, like people skills. I doubt there's anything he'd learn from a MS degree in computer BS that he doesn't already pretend to know.

His best option would be to get an MBA because that would send a message to employers that "despite having a technical degree I still want to learn the business savvy that leads to cash and/or success and/or helping people." That is what it says, and that is why people say it opens doors. And, to be honest, that is all it does.