Abortion?

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Nope, but I pray one day you'll have all the Koreans together again, just like the Germans. I don't see why they couldn't make a go of it without the dead weight that is Kim. Same with Mugabe.

Prayer and faith are not replacements for facts, reason, and situational knowledge. It's not even germaine, this line of conversation. (But your good thoughts are appreciated, no matter how useless they are.)

The problem is that abortion is detrimental to society in general. Unwanted children might be a burden for the first 20 years, but what happens afterwards?

A 20-year investment is a long time to wait for something that might not pan out. I am quite uncomfortable exchanging something with current utility for something that may not meet or exceed what I have now for 20 years.

The fact that a child is unwanted is not the fault of the child at all.

Very true. On the other hand, no child ever really asks to be born. So that line of logic doesn't really work--you can ascribe to a foetus, a baby, a person, whatever you want; it doesn't change the fact that it's still unwanted.

We have an obligation to care for these children, even if the parents decline.

I agree with you there. Why, then, do so few pro-life people adopt? Why, then, do we not let gays adopt? Why, then, do we allow so many children to live under the poverty line?

One can't just be pro-life; one has to also be pro-quality-of-life. I think it would be a horrifying act of cruelty to force a child into this world without providing a decent level of socioeconomic support--which is so often the case.

What do you mean that contraception prevents abortions? They've both increased steadily.

From what I recall, this Guttmacher report suggests that the rate has actually fallen in the United States.

That's a problem. We should be saying the other one, that if you are willing to be together that you should be willing to raise a child together. It would save considerable grief and heartache for everyone.

Even if there are very valid reasons for not wanting children?

[Blaupanzer]

How do you enforce anti-abortion laws without monthly body inspections of every female from 12 - 50? Might sound fun to some males, but that ain't going to happen. So forget forcing Biblical values on the US population by taking away human dignity from the already-viable population. Heaven is NOT filled with all the miscarraiges of all the past centuries, and won't be filled with the abortifacents of this century either.

[Alinestra Covelia]

It's interesting how two cultures can develop quite differently.

Over in America there is a lot of time, philosophical debate, and legal analysis devoted to whether abortion should be legal.

In China, it's been legal (and in fact in some cases the state has been happy to foot the costs) since it was introduced in the modern era.

Then, compare something like democratic voting, which America takes as a central principle of its government, and the very reason behind the founding of the union. People may debate how you should vote, but there is no question about whether you should vote. This system was set up expressly to allow for that.

Against China's system, where democratic participation is still the subject of intense discussion and theorizing and "how would we?" type questioning.

Just an observation that it's interesting how different nations have different headaches over different issues.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Kidicious
But you were responding to me, so I was trying to make my point clearer. That being that having abortion is in no way comparable to killing someone, killing people being extremely difficult.

That's why I rolled my eyes btw.

Ah, they have to stuff their emotions though. They have to convince themselves that the other tribe that they are killing are not persons. No one has to do that when they have an abortion. They already instintually know that a fetus is not a person.

No one has to tell herself that she is not killing a person? Am I going to have to actually dig up a quote to demonstrate what many people in the pro-choice movement have been stressing for some time, THAT IT ISN'T AN EASY CHOICE TO MAKE? Will some pro-choicer whack you upside the head, please?

As to whether it is easier or harder to kill someone when that someone thrashes around in your uterus as you kill it, I wouldn't know. I've never killed anyone either way. Hell, I don't know instinctively (or "instintually") that a fetus is not a person. In fact, I'm pretty convinced of the contrary. Was I just handed defective instincts, or do I need two X chromosomes?

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
It's interesting how two cultures can develop quite differently.

Over in America there is a lot of time, philosophical debate, and legal analysis devoted to whether abortion should be legal.

In China, it's been legal (and in fact in some cases the state has been happy to foot the costs) since it was introduced in the modern era.

Then, compare something like democratic voting, which America takes as a central principle of its government, and the very reason behind the founding of the union. People may debate how you should vote, but there is no question about whether you should vote. This system was set up expressly to allow for that.

Against China's system, where democratic participation is still the subject of intense discussion and theorizing and "how would we?" type questioning.

Just an observation that it's interesting how different nations have different headaches over different issues.

Could it be the worldviews? It's often been said that the Eastern worldview is that the individual is one of many, and that the group takes primacy over individuals; the Western one is just the opposite--the individual before the group.

I find it difficult to apply that blanket statement universally and completely, but it does explain some of the choices that people make in the two cultures.

It also goes some distance in explaining why a lot of Western-based institutions, such as democracy, actually seem to be better described as a foreign apparatus bolted onto traditional Eastern ideals.

(That said, it's also not completely isolated to East Asia. For instance, some of the highest rates of abortion in the world, with some of the least debate, happens in former Eastern Bloc countries--where the individual being part of the group mentality may be holdovers from the Communist era; there's also the fact that many women there may not want to be so cruel as to bring children into the world that they cannot care for? Additionally, in those countries, abortion's been legal since the Soviet era, so...)

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Elok
As to whether it is easier or harder to kill someone when that someone thrashes around in your uterus as you kill it, I wouldn't know. I've never killed anyone either way. Hell, I don't know instinctively (or "instintually") that a fetus is not a person. In fact, I'm pretty convinced of the contrary. Was I just handed defective instincts, or do I need two X chromosomes?

You're crazy, or you don't know how hard it is to kill someone. It's a fact that in war most of the killing is done by a minority of people, because the rest just can't do it. It's a lot easier to kill people with artillery or bombing though, and that's how most people are killed. The reason is that the killer is far removed from his victim. Compare that to a woman having a fetus inside of her body. It's very easy to have an abortion, and over 90% of women are relieved after they have one.

[Elok]

DP

[Elok]

I'm specifically contesting your claim that no one, or at least no woman having an abortion, even imagines vaguely that the fetus might be a person. Which is absurd and unsupportable. The rest, I don't really care.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
It's interesting how two cultures can develop quite differently.

Over in America there is a lot of time, philosophical debate, and legal analysis devoted to whether abortion should be legal.

In China, it's been legal (and in fact in some cases the state has been happy to foot the costs) since it was introduced in the modern era.

Then, compare something like democratic voting, which America takes as a central principle of its government, and the very reason behind the founding of the union. People may debate how you should vote, but there is no question about whether you should vote. This system was set up expressly to allow for that.

Against China's system, where democratic participation is still the subject of intense discussion and theorizing and "how would we?" type questioning.

Just an observation that it's interesting how different nations have different headaches over different issues.

In China, they would just as soon you hadn't been born.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Elok
I'm specifically contesting your claim that no one, or at least no woman having an abortion, even imagines vaguely that the fetus might be a person. Which is absurd and unsupportable. The rest, I don't really care.

Physiologically she does not. That's why she can terminate it relatively easily.

[Ben Kenobi]

A 20-year investment is a long time to wait for something that might not pan out. I am quite uncomfortable exchanging something with current utility for something that may not meet or exceed what I have now for 20 years.

Almost missed this point.

It's an important decision, but the question is not whether to bet on the child or not, you've already made that decision in the affirmative. It would be like making the decision to buy and then sell shortly, and incurring a cost for both transactions.

So it's not just a case of the decision eventually paying off, it's a decision as to whether you can afford to take a loss now or hold tight and see what happens.

Why, then, do so few pro-life people adopt?

What makes you think that prolife folks don't adopt when they have an opportunity to do so? I don't seen any evidence of it, and I've met a fair number of them.

Why, then, do we not let gays adopt?

That's a good question. They believe children have a right to a mother and a father, and that it would be wrong to deprive them of either.

Why, then, do we allow so many children to live under the poverty line?

Short answer, the poverty line is based on relative wealth, so even if everyone is wealthier, there will still be people who are poorer then other people. On absolute terms, poor people are richer then they've ever been.

One can't just be pro-life; one has to also be pro-quality-of-life.

One step at a time. You can't defend someone's quality of life, if they do not have the right to life.

I think it would be a horrifying act of cruelty to force a child into this world without providing a decent level of socioeconomic support--which is so often the case.

If you seriously believe in adoption, why would you be saying this? We have an obligation to help these children that are already here. It doesn't matter what the social conditions are, people are always being born, and we should help them as best as we can.

From what I recall, this Guttmacher report suggests that the rate has actually fallen in the United States.

Along with contraceptive use declining. It's clear. Contraceptives and abortion go hand in hand.

Even if there are very valid reasons for not wanting children?

The child doesn't have a choice. The child didn't ask to be here. How can you tell this child, I didn't want you so I am going to make sure you don't get your shot. Your mother gave you your shot, so why can't you give your kid his?

[Ben Kenobi]

How do you enforce anti-abortion laws without monthly body inspections of every female from 12 - 50?

That's a good question.

What happened before is that anyone who performed abortions was prosecuted on the testimony of the women whom he aborted.

That's all that would be necessary.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Physiologically she does not. That's why she can terminate it relatively easily.

You seem to know a lot about what all women think and feel. I guess that puts you way ahead of any other man, or woman.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by SlowwHand


You seem to know a lot about what all women think and feel. I guess that puts you way ahead of any other man, or woman.

Let me explain it to you this way. You might say you aren't afraid of any man because you are from Texas. But if a 7 foot man came into the room and threatened to bite your head off and **** down your neck, and you took a **** in your pants then you were actually afraid of him, although you might still argue later that you weren't. You might even actually think that you weren't afraid, although there was **** in your pants.

Similarly a women might claim to think that it would be just as easy to stick a knife in a persons heart as it would be to abort a fetus. but she would be wrong.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by SlowwHand


In China, they would just as soon you hadn't been born.

Classy.

(Well, on second thought, Ali is a female...)