Being an Independent in the USA is like living in a Monarchy

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by rah
Anyone that doesn't vote is an irresponsible lazy ass, and should just keep their mouths shut because they're all hot air and no action. THE "my vote won't count" is just an excuse to sit on their ass and do nothing.

Rock the non-vote!

[rah]

Ok, My original comment was that people shouldn't complain about certain politicians if they don't even bother to vote, since if they couldn't take time to voice their opinion at the ballot box then they really don't deserve to do it since they were too lazy to fullfil their civic duty. (and I'll concede that this doesn't include people that legally can't vote)

Everyone else has tried to twist it, but it is what it is.
It has nothing to do with free speach or oppression, it has to do with doing your civic duty, or don't complain about it. geeze.

And I have no use for people that all they do is complain but never offer constructive actions. It's easy to complain but it takes effort to try to make something better.


And I think it should be a paid holiday but you have to show your voting reciept to get it as a paid holiday. Granted this would mean that a lot more uniformed people would probably end up voting and actually work against my party, but in the end I think a higher turnout is worth it. God, I can't believe with all the struggles that people have gone through to ensure they had the right to vote and we can't even get 50% of the people to vote these days. That really bothers me. It's one of our most important rights and it's just ignored too frequently. Which is why I guess I get so vocal about it. If it's only 50% because people just don't care or think it's futile, that saddens me even more.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by rah
Ok, My original comment was that people shouldn't complain about certain politicians if they don't even bother to vote, since if they couldn't take time to voice their opinion at the ballot box then they really don't deserve to do it since they were too lazy to fullfil their civic duty. (and I'll concede that this doesn't include people that legally can't vote)

Everyone else has tried to twist it, but it is what it is.
It has nothing to do with free speach or oppression, it has to do with doing your civic duty, or don't complain about it. geeze.

You still don't get it. Complaining about someone you didn't vote for is perfectly fine. In fact... not voting for someone is a form of "complaining" about them in the first place.

If someone feels that none of the candidates are worth voting for... they should complain about them... because it's their actual position.

You say that they should have to vote for one candidate to complain about another, which is the fundamental principle behind the whole ****ing mess in the first place. It's a divisive idea that means R's complain about D's and D's complain about R's and both just accept the trash they vote into office because it's "theirs".

And I have no use for people that all they do is complain but never offer constructive actions. It's easy to complain but it takes effort to try to make something better.

And as you've admitted earlier in the thread (and since forgotten) voting is not the only constructive action. The "whining" you whine about can be constructive action itself. But you're too ignorant to understand that.

Granted this would mean that a lot more uniformed people would probably end up voting and actually work against my party, but in the end I think a higher turnout is worth it.

Like uninformed people don't vote for your party.

God, I can't believe with all the struggles that people have gone through to ensure they had the right to vote and we can't even get 50% of the people to vote these days. That really bothers me. It's one of our most important rights and it's just ignored too frequently. Which is why I guess I get so vocal about it. If it's only 50% because people just don't care or think it's futile, that saddens me even more.

I'm sure some people don't care. Nothing short of voter fraud (essentially bribing them to vote) is going to change that. (At least not within our current system. Lowering the voting age to get more people involved earlier in their lives would probably impact the number of those who never get involved.)

Those that think it's futile (either because of things like the electoral college, or the two party system, or just that there's no good candidates on the ballot) are expressing their opinion, they just don't have a voting option which works with their opinion. Your position is to deny their right to express their opinion in general as well, saying they have no right to express their opinion without having voted for one of the candidates (who in their opinion shouldn't be voted for), which can only disenfranchise (in a general sense) them further from the system.

If people are saying they aren't going to vote in protest... that is their "vote". You can't pretend you're supporting voting by being against the principles behind it.

[rah]

Originally posted by Aeson


You still don't get it. Complaining about someone you didn't vote for is perfectly fine. In fact... not voting for someone is a form of "complaining" about them in the first place.

If someone feels that none of the candidates are worth voting for... they should complain about them... because it's their actual position.

I"m not talking about an idividual, I'm talking about voting in general. If you go to vote and vote on 9 out of the 10 races fine, or even if you only vote in half of them. FINE, you took the effort to vote and while voting you chose not to vote in a particular race. And if you want to complain about a candidate FINE.

But if you sat at home on your ass and didn't even bother to go to vote, your opinion means a whole lot less to me. CLEAR NOW

You say that they should have to vote for one candidate to complain about another, which is the fundamental principle behind the whole ****ing mess in the first place. It's a divisive idea that means R's complain about D's and D's complain about R's and both just accept the trash they vote into office because it's "theirs".

I said no such thing. I said if you don't vote don't complain. Geeze. Hell I complain about Bush and I voted for him. (please limit the abuse for that vote)

[Arrian]

please limit the abuse for that vote

No.

By the way, I tend to agree with you on this one, rah. If a non-voter's reason for not voting is that the candidates suck, there are ways of getting involved to try to get non-sucky candidates. The first and most basic step would be to take part in a primary. It took me a while, but I finally got to that point. Maybe in another 10-15 years I'll get more involved I do think there is some civic responsibility to voting - even if you write someone's name in. If you just ignore it all, you don't really send much of a message (beyond "I don't care" or "you guys suck!"). In the end, a non-vote may be a vote of sorts, but I think it's a wasted one. Surely there are better protest votes available?

I think the suckiness of Presidential candidates comes down to the structure of the election more than the parties themselves. To win, you have to get 270 electoral votes, and in order to do that you have to be lots of things to lots of people... which tends to result in all sorts of asshattery. It's the logical outcome, really. That doesn't mean I like it.

-Arrian

[Aeson]

Originally posted by rah
I"m not talking about an idividual, I'm talking about voting in general. If you go to vote and vote on 9 out of the 10 races fine, or even if you only vote in half of them. FINE, you took the effort to vote and while voting you chose not to vote in a particular race. And if you want to complain about a candidate FINE.

But if you sat at home on your ass and didn't even bother to go to vote, your opinion means a whole lot less to me. CLEAR NOW

You've always been clear. Just clearly hypocritical. And you sill are.

What you're not considering is that the same principles that apply to the Federal ticket also often apply to State and even Local tickets. It's not a rare thing to have a ballot with only 2 real choices in all races combined. (D) or (R)... generally with a 3rd party or two thrown in, maybe an actual (I) from time to time. For someone like me who thinks (D)'s and (R)'s are the problem, and (L)'s and (G)'s (or here in Utah, (C)'s) are nuts... there is no good candidate unless someone (I) runs on a platform I can support. If that happens I'd vote for them. I've yet to run into one though.

Contrary to your ignorant comments though, I still have the right to express my opinions about politics. You've even gone so far as to agree that my doing so can be constructive. Obliterating your claims (that for some inane reason you continue to express) that those who don't vote do not have the right to, and shouldn't, express their political opinions.

I said no such thing. I said if you don't vote don't complain.

You said they don't have the right to complain, and shouldn't. You still are expressing ignorance of the potential for people to not see any good option to vote for, and thus not vote.

"People that don't vote, don't have the right to ***** about anything." - rah (being wrong)

Geeze. Hell I complain about Bush and I voted for him. (please limit the abuse for that vote)

And you'll vote for McCain. That's your choice, to align yourself as you see fit, to support who you deem worthy. I am not going to align myself with R or D or G or I... or any of their offerings on my ballot this election... I think they're all wrong. If a candidate comes along who is worth voting for, I'll vote for them. Telling me I can't complain, shouldn't complain, or don't have the right to complain, just because there is no candidate I support in an election... is ignorant and hypocritical on your part.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Arrian
In the end, a non-vote may be a vote of sorts, but I think it's a wasted one. Surely there are better protest votes available?

The best option is to contact your representative, who whether you voted for them or not, is still your representative... and let them know how you think they should be acting.

It's still a long shot to have any real effect (at least on State and Federal levels).

[Arrian]

The best option is to contact your representative, who whether you voted for them or not, is still your representative...

I've done that*... but unfortunately all I've ever seen in response is a boilerplate response email that says "thank you for contacting me about [issue]. I [sponsor, support, oppose] X piece of legislation..."

Still, I guess my position was recorded by a staffer. I will send more emails in future. Can't hurt, very small chance of helping... doesn't take too long.

I wonder how effective an email to my Congressman telling him to quit getting us so much pork will be? The guy's all proud of browbeating the Navy into buying more nuclear subs from Electric Boat in Groton.

Unfortunately, the Republican challenger appears to be ye olde stock Republican. Taxes are bad and the Dem voted to raise them! No amnesty to law-breaking illegals! No defeat in Iraq! No detail, though.

-Arrian

* - hell, I've written to Dubya.

[rah]

I stand by my comments. If you don't take the time to vote, don't take the time to complain. I have been convinced by listening to the people here that there may be a FEW exceptions to this. If people are active otherwise and can't find one person to vote for in EVERY race on the ballot. They should get a pass and be able to complain about the politicians. But people that find no one they can support really should have been paying attention in the primaries. There are a lot of good people running in primaries, but alas never see the light of day because the machine candidates win. But in primaries, fewer people vote and elections can me real close. AND more importantly there's usually a few GOOD PEOPLE RUNNING. Weird things can happen in primaries, especially at the local level when there are only a few hundred votes total.

But for the record, aggy doesn't fit in this catagory. He'd rather sit at home and not be accountable.

[rah]

It's a lot of people sitting at home during the primaries that causes crappy candidates in the regular elections. (presidential candidates excluded here, since more people participate in this but still way too few) and as metioned previously not likely to be good based on the process.

[Aeson]

Well I'm glad you can admit there are people who don't vote who still have the right to complain.

Though technically, even Agathon has the right to complain. (Or troll American voters as it were.)

[rah]

I still think it has to be earned. Taking 15 minutes to vote isn't really that high of a price to pay. And if you're not willing to pay that..... But as I've stated there are others that make a convincing arguement.

I'd rather spend the day smoking weed and enjoying a barbecue than wasting my time voting.

doesn't cut it.

[Aeson]

It's patently obvious that the right to whine/complain doesn't have to be earned.

[rah]

No but to be taken seriously it has to be.

[Aeson]

Why? If someone who didn't vote has a valid complaint or argument you're just going to ignore it? Sounds like the definition of ignorance to me.