Obama and Abortion

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm suggesting that there is a tenedecy for people in a society to have similar moral belief, and those beliefs tend to be consistant in nature. Outlawing abortion doesn't seem to be consistant with other common moral beliefs in the US.

That's a strange theory.

1. Most people believe that unrestricted abortion is wrong in the US.

2. An idea isn't moral just because the majority of the people believe in it.

As for banning abortion not being consistant, I would think it is very consistant. You see prolifers believe that the unborn is a human child no different from other children, and ought to be accorded the same protections.

I don't see how that position is inconsistant with everything else.

I was refering to the law in general. People didn't generally agree with the law before Roe either.

I'd disagree with that. Some people didn't like the old law in the US, but they were a distinct minority. Abortion was never subject to the amendment process, hence it has had less popular support then even prohibition.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lorizael

To point out differences between sexes in other situations, however, is not useful and sometimes even harmful.

"Man, so I was on the highway yesterday, and I was stuck behind this woman who was going like thirty while doing her makeup. Ugh."

In relating this story, pointing out that the bad driver was a woman does nothing except to perpetuate the idea that women are bad drivers. Examples like this happen all the time and they are, in the long run and in a very small way, harmful.

Didn't I say that the issue was creating difference where it didn't matter?

So, in my ideal world, if years and years of observation and study revealed that human beings possessing two X chromosomes somehow had better and more valuable opinions with regards to the issue of abortion, then I would certainly support your assertion to defer to women.

However, as far as I know, no such study has ever been conducted and we have no reason to believe that their opinions contain any more utility than the opinions of any other kind of human being. So, as far as I'm concerned, deferring to them is just another example of pointing out their sex when it serves no purpose, which only perpetuates the existence of sexism in society.

The reason women should have the lead in this issue is because a man simply can't ever have an abortion. That simple. It isn;t a matter of studies, its a simple fact that men are not, can't not, and will not, ever be affected by this issue in the same way that women are.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by GePap
The reason women should have the lead in this issue is because a man simply can't ever have an abortion. That simple. It isn;t a matter of studies, its a simple fact that men are not, can't not, and will not, ever be affected by this issue in the same way that women are.

Okay, this is getting repetitive, so I'm just going to end it.

Your reason is dumb. It's as simple as that. Your argument is just dumb. The people who should be in charge of an issue are those most qualified to render decisions about the issue - educated people, experienced people, etc. Not women just cuz they're women. That's all.

[Elok]

I second that. Is braking a car an action or inaction? Geez.

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by Lorizael


Okay, this is getting repetitive, so I'm just going to end it.

Your reason is dumb. It's as simple as that. Your argument is just dumb. The people who should be in charge of an issue are those most qualified to render decisions about the issue - educated people, experienced people, etc. Not women just cuz they're women. That's all.

OK, so using that logic, how are women not more qualifed to render decisions about abortion, considerig that some of them have actually experienced it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Those that have, have the experience. Most women haven't.

[DirtyMartini]

OK, do you at least concede that the views of those who have experienced it carry a little more weight?

I'd be willing to consider a hierarchy --

Those who have made a choice WRT abortion in their own life (had an unwanted pregnancy decided to keep or not)
Those who might have to make such a choice at some point in the future (currently abstinent, want kids now, using BC)
Those who once could have been in such a position, but no longer can (the elderly, post hysterectomy)
Those who could never, ever possibly have to make that choice (men, unable to conceive)

[Imran Siddiqui]

It depends. If we are discussing it as a moral issue of the unborn life, then not really (in that case 'experienced people' are those who have studied ethics).

And I'm not sure if he meant that having the experience invalidates education. I'd think a male doctor is more qualified than a 17 year old female who may have to make the choice in the future.

Let's just say I agree with Lori... GePap's argument is, in a word, dumb.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lorizael


Okay, this is getting repetitive, so I'm just going to end it.

Your reason is dumb. It's as simple as that. Your argument is just dumb. The people who should be in charge of an issue are those most qualified to render decisions about the issue - educated people, experienced people, etc. Not women just cuz they're women. That's all.

Given that men can't possibly have the same experience as women regarding this issue (physically impossible), even by your claims, women remain the "best" people for the job overall. Not every woman is more qualified than any man on the issue, but women as a group are better qualified than men as a group, just for being women.

If that offends your false picture of egalitarinism, so be it.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
It depends. If we are discussing it as a moral issue of the unborn life, then not really (in that case 'experienced people' are those who have studied ethics).

And I'm not sure if he meant that having the experience invalidates education. I'd think a male doctor is more qualified than a 17 year old female who may have to make the choice in the future.

Let's just say I agree with Lori... GePap's argument is, in a word, dumb.

Blarg. Agree with above post. Too tired to continue dumb argument.

[Lorizael]

*sigh* I'm a masochist.

Originally posted by GePap
Given that men can't possibly have the same experience as women regarding this issue (physically impossible), even by your claims, women remain the "best" people for the job overall.

No. See. Look here. The above statement means that you believe that the ability to experience a particular issue gives one's opinion on that issue more weight. You have to prove this. You especially have to prove this when conventional wisdom would tell us that more weight should be given to the opinions of people who are experts on the subject matter - like, say, OBGYNs and the like.

Not every woman is more qualified than any man on the issue, but women as a group are better qualified than men as a group, just for being women.

Disregarding whether or not you believe the draft in America to be legit, if there is a draft at some point, do you believe that women should be drafted along with men?

[Lancer]

Bumped for Vesayen.