Obama and Abortion

[GePap]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
We have learned more about morality on that issue, and changed our view based on it. Yes, on the issue of slavery we are more moral than our ancestors. Except that we allow it to continue in the form of wage slavery/etc.

Care to elaborate those sources of this new "moral knowledge" that we supposedly found?

I thought that you were a post-enlightenment person, and recognized that society has advanced in the last 5000 years.

JM

Society has advanced materialy and in its abilities, for sure. Morality doesn't advance. It changes.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Elok
The legitimate (or arguably legitimate) societal concerns for the aborted fetus are ignored.

How about we stop ignoring the concerns of actual human beings, ie women?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by GePap


Women don't "commit" pregnancy. They become pregnant. sorry if you are unable to see the clear difference in that.

QFT

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by GePap
Women don't "commit" pregnancy. They become pregnant. sorry if you are unable to see the clear difference in that.

Uh, I'm willing to bet that most women, especially in the western world, "commit" the act that causes pregnancy. Don't play semantics; your point is already ridiculous enough as it is.

[Elok]

Originally posted by GePap
Women don't "commit" pregnancy. They become pregnant. sorry if you are unable to see the clear difference in that.

Is abortion accidental? Or were you arguing about criminalizing pregnancy itself? Get your own argument straight.

Kid, stop the stupid melodrama. I am aware that women with unwanted pregnancies face serious difficulties. I simply happen to believe that, in a choice between that injustice and the death of the innocent, we should choose the lesser evil (while doing our best to mitigate it without committing the greater).

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lorizael


Uh, I'm willing to bet that most women, especially in the western world, "commit" the act that causes pregnancy. Don't play semantics; your point is already ridiculous enough as it is.

Men can have sex as well. The difference that matters is that pregnacy is a consequence of sex ONLY WOMEN can experience.

Do you need basic biology lessons?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Elok


Is abortion accidental? Or were you arguing about criminalizing pregnancy itself? Get your own argument straight.

Given how many times women's bodies reject fertilized eggs, I guess most abortions do happen without conscious acts form women. Just think how many human beings those evil nasty female bodies have killed!

Also, since you brought up rape, clearly women getting pregnant is not always their choice. The popularity of contraception is yet another clear proof that most women would like the ability to have sex without the immense personal health risks of pregnacy.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by GePap
Men can have sex as well. The difference that matters is that pregnacy is a consequence of sex ONLY WOMEN can experience.

Do you need basic biology lessons?

Look, you're treading seriously close to BK levels of lunacy here. There is simply no reason to arbitrarily decide that women have the only valid moral opinions concerning abortion.

Why is the opinion of a woman who has never been pregnant (and thus learned nothing from the experience) or a woman who cannot become pregnant (and thus can never have the experience that fully functional women can have) more valuable than the opinion of a man?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Elok
Kid, stop the stupid melodrama. I am aware that women with unwanted pregnancies face serious difficulties. I simply happen to believe that, in a choice between that injustice and the death of the innocent, we should choose the lesser evil (while doing our best to mitigate it without committing the greater).

I don't think that you are aware of the seriousness of pregnancy. Either I'm I. If a women told you that she didn't want to give birth to a baby, that she would even be willing to have an abortion, I don't think that you would really be considering her opinion. You are biased because you never have been pregnant and it's physically impossible for you to be pregnant. Furthermore you are very different from a woman.

[DirtyMartini]

I sort of agree with GePap on this one --

You can say that you have any moral code you wish, but for men, the point is pretty much moot. A man will never have to make the choice to have or not to have an abortion. It's all entirely and unalterably theoretical. This makes saying "it's right" or "it's wrong" worlds easier.

Much like it's very easy to say "stealing is always wrong, I would never steal" when you're well fed. It's not so easy to stick to your moral certitude when you're starving to death and your only option for survival is to steal food.

Not that men can't have an opinion, but we must realize that it will never be a choice that any of us would ever face, and that matters.

edit: heh, I agree with Kid too.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lorizael


Look, you're treading seriously close to BK levels of lunacy here. There is simply no reason to arbitrarily decide that women have the only valid moral opinions concerning abortion.

Why is the opinion of a woman who has never been pregnant (and thus learned nothing from the experience) or a woman who cannot become pregnant (and thus can never have the experience that fully functional women can have) more valuable than the opinion of a man?

To quote myself:

2. Men should be adult and rational enough to acknowledge the fact that abortion is an issue that affects women far more than them, and thus defer to them on this issue as much as they can within their own moral guidelines. That most adults are far from rational isn't my issue.

If you have problems understanding this, well, your problem, not mine.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Lorizael


Uh, I'm willing to bet that most women, especially in the western world, "commit" the act that causes pregnancy. Don't play semantics; your point is already ridiculous enough as it is.

Sex isn't a crime.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Either I'm I.

I just want to record this sentence for posterity.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by GePap

2. Men should be adult and rational enough to acknowledge the fact that abortion is an issue that affects women far more than them, and thus defer to them on this issue as much as they can within their own moral guidelines. That most adults are far from rational isn't my issue.

If you have problems understanding this, well, your problem, not mine.

But why draw that arbitrary line at all? Jesus H. ****ing Christ Almighty On A Stick. The only way to get rid of sexism in society is by not making decisions based on sex alone. As long as we keep acknowledging differences between the sexes and letting those differences affect how we treat each other, sexism will exist.

[DirtyMartini]

I sincerely hope I never stop acknowledging differences between the sexes.