What's heaven like?

[Ben Kenobi]

But not someone. Something.

Y'know, physics.

No different from musical scales in that regard. A sign of beauty and order entirely outside of our capacity to construct.

You've heard of the watchmaker, but that doesn't do justice. It's like walking around the bend and seeing this huge statue, miles high, and then wondering who built that?

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
It depends on how you see love. God lets us have free will, and allows us to reject him if we choose to do so.

That to me is far more of a show of love, then the alternative. He will not force us to love him, he wants us to choose him over everything else out there.

I don't think he stops loving those who are condemned in hell, I think it greatly grieves him. He separates himself not because he has stopped loving them, but because they have chosen to reject God.

And should they change their mind, would he raise them from hell? As I understand it, that condemnation is eternal.

So, no matter how repentant they are in hell, there's no chance of them ascending to heaven.

Which, again, means that his love and forgiveness is quite finite.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by FrostyBoy


Yes it does.

God: I have an infinite membership cards. Do you want one?
You: Yes
God: Are you a member?
You: No, how do I become a member?
God: Admit to me your most naughty secrets and tell me you love me
You: Maybe later?
God: You've got between now and next week.


He has an infinite membership cards. Whether you want one or not, has nothing to do with the number of cards he can hand out.

Ah, but see, I'm not talking about membership into his religion.

It's more that it appears there's a time limit for being able to become a member; that limitation automatically puts a restriction on the concept of "infinite", meaning that it is no longer unbounded--no longer infinite.

[Ben Kenobi]

And should they change their mind, would he raise them from hell? As I understand it, that condemnation is eternal.

Yes, but God turning away from you forever isn't because he loves you any less, but because you have turned away from him.

So, no matter how repentant they are in hell, there's no chance of them ascending to heaven.

No. If you didn't want to be with him here on earth, why would you want to be in his presence forever in heaven?

Which, again, means that his love and forgiveness is quite finite.

Again, you are assuming that because he cuts himself off from those who reject him, that he has stopped loving them. I don't see that at all.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I don't think that many people will be in heaven until after the end of the earth. I think that after the end, God will fix up the earth, and that then He will ressurect those who follow Him to live there with Him.

JM

You're a physicists right? Assuming there is a being responsible for the creation of the universe, how in the world could it restore the information irreversibly lost when in the millennia since our deaths? A

[Ben Kenobi]

It's more that it appears there's a time limit for being able to become a member; that limitation automatically puts a restriction on the concept of "infinite", meaning that it is no longer unbounded--no longer infinite.

Actually,

1. Assuming time does not exist in heaven AND

2. Assuming God only loves those in heaven AND

3. At least one person is saved.

Then God's love is infinite.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove

Have you been sacrificing puppies to Cthulu again?

Maybe.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
No. If you didn't want to be with him here on earth, why would you want to be in his presence forever in heaven?

Well, one would reason that if hell is as unbearably bad as they say, eventually someone would want to go to heaven, a place that's supposed to be, at least bearably good.

Again, you are assuming that because he cuts himself off from those who reject him, that he has stopped loving them. I don't see that at all.

*shrugs* But if someone sees the light, so to speak, will he forgive them and bring them back into the fold, like the wayward sheep they might be?

Not if the condemnation's eternal.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Mrs Snuggles

Ah, but see, I'm not talking about membership into his religion.

It's more that it appears there's a time limit for being able to become a member; that limitation automatically puts a restriction on the concept of "infinite", meaning that it is no longer unbounded--no longer infinite.

It is this infinite notion which is one of the reasons universal redemption is the view held by some.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith_(novel) is a fantasy book by MacDonald (which I liked).

JM

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Umm, but the reason why you are free, is that you are free from sin.

No. You're wrong. I'm free right now. I'm free to sin or do whatever. I'm free to decide for myself what is right and wrong. Sure I can't control every thought that I have. Sometimes I want to smoke. But I am free to decide whether that is right or wrong or good or bad for me. I'm also free to either smoke or not, assuming I'm not addicted. If I am addicted I'm free to either seek treatment or just smoke more.

God isn't authoritative. He just takes all the desire to smoke away... forever. As well as everything that caused you to desire to smoke in the first place.

If you want to believe that God will take you desires away that's fine. But acknowledge that he demands complete obedience to him in return.

Now smoking isn't as powerful, or as addictive, or as pervasive, as sin. I am just using it as an example, so please focus on the concept.

You mean thinking for yourself is more desirable than tobacco is to a smoker.

You could still decide to smoke. But it is bad for you, and not pleasent, and harmful to those around you. So why would you ever do so?

JM

To be cool? Because it stimulates you? Because you don't want to have withdrawl? Because you are stupid?

[FrostyBoy]

Originally posted by Mrs Snuggles

Ah, but see, I'm not talking about membership into his religion.

It's more that it appears there's a time limit for being able to become a member; that limitation automatically puts a restriction on the concept of "infinite", meaning that it is no longer unbounded--no longer infinite.

This is a more tricky one, but God is still infinite in this regard, simply because he is Omnipresent. Your limit, is your own, not his. The mission given to you by God is to get to heaven his way, if you fail the mission in the time given, that's not his fault.

At least, this is as far as I understand it.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Heraclitus




You're a physicists right? Assuming there is a being responsible for the creation of the universe, how in the world could it restore the information irreversibly lost when in the millennia since our deaths? A

How is there any information irreversibly lost to God?

Remember, God is not a creature within the universe. He could just create a new universe....

JM
(Yes, I am a physicist)

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Actually,
1. Assuming time does not exist in heaven AND
2. Assuming God only loves those in heaven AND
3. At least one person is saved.
Then God's love is infinite.

Quite a lot of assumptions there. Which is fine.

And you're right, in those specific circumstances. But I'm not specifying those restrictions, which means that my original point stands unchallenged.

[FrostyBoy]

Btw, here's a good question for religious nuts.

If God is omnipresent, which means he is in all places at all times, then he would be inside Hell and inside Satan.

Thats somewhat comforting to know if I ever do end up in Hell.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by FrostyBoy
This is a more tricky one, but God is still infinite in this regard, simply because he is Omnipresent. Your limit, is your own, not his. The mission given to you by God is to get to heaven his way, if you fail the mission in the time given, that's not his fault.

At least, this is as far as I understand it.

Which again, doesn't bypass the issue--if his forgiveness and love were truly infinite, and someone fails in that time given, wouldn't said person get another chance, so to speak?