It's war. Part III

[PLATO]

Originally posted by GePap


Since when?

wil·ly-nil·ly Audio Help /ˈwɪliˈnɪli/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wil-ee-nil-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adverb 1. in a disorganized or unplanned manner; sloppily.

Our invasions are usually very nicely organized.

It is our occupations that have become "willy-nilly"

[PLATO]

Having read through this thread a couple of things come to mind.

1.) I have yet to see Serb (or anybody else for that matter) post any UN approval for the South Ossetia peace keeping operation. I have looked through the UNSC resolutions and find ZERO resolutions authorizing any peace keeping operation in South Ossetia. Abkhazia, yes...South Ossetia, NO.
Yest, Serb keeps saying it was a UN authorized mission. Proof please.

2.) It is quite clear from what both sides said that South Ossetians were indeed shelling Georgian troops before Georgia took military action. Russian peacekeepers took no action to stop this cease fire violation. Clearly the Georgian response was disproportianate. However, the region in question was Georgian soverign territory. It is equally clear that the Russian response was disproportiantae to the Georgian action...and involved a massive use of force in a foriegn country without any international approval. Equally clear is that the Russians had been training for this type of action for a good while before hand. Serb attributed this to Russians having intelligence on the Georgian plans...okay, then why the hell didn't they seek international consensus on a response before anything happened?

3.) Lastly, AP reporters have toured the area of the South Ossetian capital and have reported that the heaviest damage was in the city center close to government buildings and that many residential areas were nearly unscathed. With the vastly lower than reported (by the Russians) civilian death tolls now coming out, it seems very likely that the Russian justification of protecting civilians was a farce. It now seems clear that their main goal was protecting the political alignment of the region in their favor and preventing the soverign government from exercising its authority over the region.

But...it is very interesting to hear the Russian point of view as esposed by Serb. I am certain, after continually reading his posts, that he is sincere in his belief of what he is saying. It appears to me that he is the one being "brainwashed" by his own media.

With the government in Russia having taken control of the media there in the last few years, it seems very reasonable to me that the Western Media is probably more accurate in their reports.

[onodera]

Do you expect us to speak against our country when it is criticized by foreigners? Do I, or Serb, or Propaganda, or Ellestar look like Agathon to you?

[Saras]

Criticising your country is a sign of strength

[Saras]

Lithuania sucks donkey balls, for example.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by onodera
Do you expect us to speak against our country when it is criticized by foreigners? Do I, or Serb, or Propaganda, or Ellestar look like Agathon to you?

You'd have more credibility if you did.

You've seen me criticizing U.S. waterboarding, treatment of detainees, foreign policy, intelligence of our citizenry, etc.

I support Obama, but I've distinguished myself from him on the use of nuclear power, on his health insurance plans, and on his budgetting -- which does not support his claim for embracing Paygo. And you've seen me support McCain's position several tiimes.

To me, the important thing is to get to the right answer, not necessary to my country's explanation or to the point of view that support's "my side."

[onodera]

The difference is that we are defending our country from foreign criticism. Leave the criticism to us.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by onodera
Do you expect us to speak against our country when it is criticized by foreigners? Do I, or Serb, or Propaganda, or Ellestar look like Agathon to you?

No..no. I think you guys are Patriots and I appreciate the way you speak of your country.

I must say, however, that the true test of a free people is being able to speak out when your country is wrong.

[Zkribbler]

Russia hits back at Nato warning


Russia has dismissed a warning by Nato that normal relations are impossible while its troops remain inside Georgia.

Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov accused Nato of bias and of trying to save the "criminal regime" in Tbilisi.

He insisted Moscow was not occupying Georgia and had no plans to annex the separatist region of South Ossetia.

Earlier, Nato demanded that Russia pull out its troops from Georgia as agreed in an EU-brokered ceasefire plan signed by both parties at the weekend.

Russian President Dmitri Medvedev told his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy in a phone call that the pull-out would be complete by 21-22 August, with the exception of some 500 troops, who will be installed in peacekeeping posts on either side of South Ossetia's border.

Some Russian troops have been seen leaving Gori, the largest Georgian town close to the South Ossetia border.

But BBC correspondents on the ground say there are still Russian artillery positions in place. In addition, there are Russian checkpoints close to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi.

The conflict broke out on 7 August when Georgia launched an assault to wrest back control of the Moscow-backed breakaway region of South Ossetia, triggering a counter-offensive by Russian troops who advanced beyond South Ossetia into Georgia's heartland.

Both sides have accused the other of violating the peace plan, and correspondents say there has so far been little sign of any large-scale withdrawal.

Buffer zone

Following crisis talks in Brussels, Nato's 26 foreign ministers said in a joint statement that they could not have normal relations with Russia as long as Moscow had troops in Georgia.

"The Alliance is considering seriously the implications of Russia's actions for the Nato-Russia relationship," the statement said, read out by Nato Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer.

"We have determined that we cannot continue with business as usual."

Mr de Hoop Scheffer added that he could not see how the Nato-Russia Council - set up in 2002 as a framework for dialogue - could convene at this time.

But he said lines of communication would not be abandoned.

He also said that the member states had agreed to set up a Nato-Georgia commission to strengthen ties with Tbilisi, but stopped short of giving a timetable for Georgia's accession to Nato.

In a televised address, Russia's foreign minister underlined Moscow's view that Russian troops only entered South Ossetia after Georgia tried to reintegrate the breakaway region by force.

Sergei Lavrov accused Nato of being "unobjective and biased".

"It appears to me that Nato is trying to portray the aggressor as the victim, to whitewash a criminal regime and to save a failing regime," he said.

Earlier, the Russian military warned that the withdrawal would be slow until the weekend at least, and that troops would remain in an undefined buffer zone around South Ossetia.

It said such a move was permitted under the ceasefire deal which allowed Russia to take additional security measures until international peacekeepers were deployed.

But Georgia accused Moscow of going much further, saying Russian troops have seized control of a key commercial port in Poti in an attempt to cripple the Georgian economy.

In an apparent goodwill gesture Russia exchanged 15 Georgian prisoners for five of its own troops at a Russian checkpoint in Igoeti, about 30km (18 miles) from Georgia's capital.

Georgian officials told the BBC's Helen Fawkes, who was at the scene, that two of the Russian prisoners were airmen who had been shot down by Georgian forces about two weeks ago.

Meanwhile, the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said Russia and Georgia had agreed to allow 20 extra military observers to be deployed in and around South Ossetia.

In total, the OSCE said it would send up to 100 additional monitors to join the handful it already has in Georgia.

The OSCE has had a presence in South Ossetia since the end of a civil war there in the early 1990s, which resulted in de facto independence for the region.

It also supports a UN-led peace process in Georgia's other separatist region of Abkhazia.

So, Russia isn't taking NATO seriously. We aren't taking Russia seriously. And the situation is VERY serious.

[Julian Delphiki]

Originally posted by onodera
The difference is that we are defending our country from foreign criticism. Leave the criticism to us.

What criticism that would be? Not harsh enough on the enemies?

[Saras]

We're just helping out, seeing as there is no tangible domestic opposition to anything, let alone military conflict, which tends to solidify nations.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by onodera
The difference is that we are defending our country from foreign criticism. Leave the criticism to us.

Sure, speak up! Let us hear it.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by PLATO

But...it is very interesting to hear the Russian point of view as esposed by Serb. I am certain, after continually reading his posts, that he is sincere in his belief of what he is saying. It appears to me that he is the one being "brainwashed" by his own media.

You forget another possibility. Russia have put a lot of energy into the infopart of this war - what if he simply is a little wheel in this process ? He could be polys own little FSB agent.

[Saras]

Naaahh, too passionate and crazy

[BlackCat]

Well, Poly is probably low on their list, so they accepted what they could get for a small payment