It's war. Part III

[GePap]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Repeat the lie all you want it didn't happen. So far a grand total of 45 bodies have been found.

HRW has only been able to as of whenever that report was filed verify 45 dead civilians, which isn't the same thing. At the same time, they have verified 11 dead Georgian civilians from Russian bombing in Gori.

Exact and complete figures aren't going to be known for days.

[Serb]

Answer this post Oerdin!

Originally posted by Oerdin
The true size of Russia's lies has now become clear. While Russia was claiming 2000 civilians were killed in the first day the reality is that in the entire conflict just 45 civilians died. Clearly Russia deliberately VASTLY exaggerated civilian deaths in order to come up with an excuse to attack Georgia.

1) Show me a single "independent" report" which proves that "in the entire conflict just 45 civilians died".. What you show is a single report (against many) which says about 45 dead bodies in one exact place of the city. It doesn't say a single word about how many were already buried or still lying on the streets or in the cellars or anywhere else. It doesn't say a single word about civilians killed outside the capital (and at least ten SO villages have been destroyed). And SO authorities never claimed that civilians have been killed ONLY in Tskhinvali and nowhere else. In fact it's your own fantasy and and wrong assumption. This single article proves nothing. Except that there were casualities among the civilian population due to the Georgian aggression.

The article doesn't say a single word about the TOTAL NUMBER of dead civilians.

What are you doing by waving this piece of BS above your head is just lying and whitewashing the butchers of Tskhinvali.

2) Russians never claimed that 2000 civilians were killed the first day. The South Ossetian leadership claimed that 1 400 have been killed after the first day and 2 000 total.
3) What Russians could claim for sure is casualties among their own peacekeepers. And it was claimed that 10 Russian peacekeepers have been killed within the first hours of Georgian aggression. Do you need to see the graves of our soldiers?
4) Once again, even if we assume for a second, that your WSJ's bullsh!ts are correct and the total number of killed Ossetian civilians is several times lesser than 2000, even then, HOW THE **** THAT JUSTIFIES A SURPRISE ATTACK VS. THE PEACEFULLY SLEEPING CITY? How the **** the suprise night bombardment of the residential area of the city can be justified at all?
How the **** that justifies an attack vs. the PEACEKEEPERS (and attack vs. a peace keeping force considered a WAR CRIME according to UN regulations, iirc).
5) Once again, what would YOU, as a supreme comander of US the military DO, if 500 of your peacekeepers were UNDER ATTACK by owerwhelming force and ten of them were already KIA and many more wounded?
WOULD YOU SEND THEM REINFORCEMENTS AND TRY TO SAVE THEM or just let them die there without any help?

ANSWER THIS QUESTION!

So what we have is Russia deliberately arming their surrogates and having their surrogates launch devastating artillery attacks on Georgia hoping to provoke a response which Russia could use to attack. Immediately as soon as Georgia took the bait Russia's military launched their planned attack and simultaneously spun lies with their propaganda machine. Making claims of 2000 dead civilians and blocking independent journalists from reporting on the ground because the Russians didn't want people to know how big their lies really were.

I answered to this bullsh!t in my posts above. Don't want to repeat the same crap over and over again.

The west needs to understand that Putin's new Russia is a militant expansionist state which is more then willing to create conflicts in order to force it's hegemony on other former Soviet states. Or at the very least block them from pursuing independent policies & alliances.

The World needs to understand that the United States of America is a militant expansionist state which is more then willing to create conflicts in order to force it's hegemony over the World. Or at the very least block some countries from pursuing independent policies.

I would be very worried if I was the Ukraine.

Fortunatelly you are not the Ukraine, though your goverment have installed its puppets both in Ukraine and Georgia for the reasons described above.

[Naked Gents Rut]

So, according to you our peacekeeprs had to act as the Dutch did in Serbenica - just step aside and let Georgians to kill Ossetians?

The Dutch never should have been in Yugoslavia in the first place, just as Russian "peacekeepers" should not be inside Georgia.

[Serb]

Originally posted by GePap


HRW has only been able to as of whenever that report was filed verify 45 dead civilians, which isn't the same thing. At the same time, they have verified 11 dead Georgian civilians from Russian bombing in Gori.

Exact and complete figures aren't going to be known for days.

However, it looks to me that DD and Oerdin are denying the fact that there was a massive bombardment of Tskhinvali by Georgian army involving multple-launch rocket systems, heavy artillery, tanks and bombers.
And it seems weird to me that Oerdin as a former soldier can't understand that the result of GRADs MLRS firing at residential areas of the city at night when its inhabitants are sleeping SHOULD be devastating and the death toll should be at scale of several hundreds, not dozens.
I just can't understand how they can justify the bombardment of Tskhinvali.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by GePap


This isn't even a good troll.

Serb seems to be falling for it just fine. Of course it wouldn't have worked with you as the mark.



Really though, I'm just trying to play the role of what Serb apparently perceives the typical American to be. Naturally it only reinforced his misconceptions though.

[GePap]

Even if one acknowledges that there was a discriminate bombardment of Tskhinvali (something that the HRW said was likely given the evidence they saw), that does not mean that the figures given by your government are any more true than those given by Georgia. So it is true that as of yet, Russia has been unable to show proof of the number of civilians they claim killed.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut


The Dutch never should have been in Yugoslavia in the first place,

True.

just as Russian "peacekeepers" should not be inside Georgia.

If there were no Russian peacekeepers there, then now there were no Ossetians and Abkhazians left. It was Russia who stopped the bloodbathes in SO and Abkhazia in 90's and only thanks to the Russian peacekeepers there were no other such bloodbathes within last 14 years. Would you prefer the constant fighting in the region between South Ossetians, Abkhazians and Georgians?
Do you want that? Why do you hate those people so much? All they want is to live peacefully on THEIR NATIVE LAND (aside Albanians in Kosovo) and not be conquered and killed by Georgians.

[Serb]

Originally posted by GePap
Even if one acknowledges that there was a discriminate bombardment of Tskhinvali (something that the HRW said was likely given the evidence they saw), that does not mean that the figures given by your government are any more true than those given by Georgia. So it is true that as of yet, Russia has been unable to show proof of the number of civilians they claim killed.

We will provide the proof. Send your investigators. In fact, I would love to see a great international investigation and a war tribunal over the man who ordered to bombard the Tskhinvali.

I saw a single Grad firing at artillery range and what devastation it causes. If a regiment of Grads fired on the city for hours... 45 dead, damn...

[Serb]

Originally posted by Darius871


Serb seems to be falling for it just fine. Of course it wouldn't have worked with you as the mark.



Really though, I'm just trying to play the role of what Serb apparently perceives the typical American to be. Naturally it only reinforced his misconceptions though.

And you are doing just fine. Keep up the great work.

[Naked Gents Rut]

Would you prefer the constant fighting in the region between South Ossetians, Abkhazians and Georgians?

I imagine the fighting would've ended a long time ago if the Russians would just allow the Georgians to take care of their own internal affairs. The fact that you oppose NATO interference in Yugoslavia but support Russian interference in Georgia just shows what an imperialist hypocrite you really are.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut


I imagine the fighting would've ended a long time ago if the Russians would just allow the Georgians to take care of their own internal affairs.

Oh sure, we saw how they took care of their own internal affairs in 1991-1994 and saw how they did so at August 2008.
They have only one receipe how to handle those "internal affairs" - kill, kill and more time kill.

The fact that you oppose NATO interference in Yugoslavia but support Russian interference in Georgia just shows what an imperialist hypocrite you really are.

The Russian interference in South Ossetia was to save its peacekeepers who were under attack by one of the sides of the local conflict who violated the cease-fire agreement and started the aggression.
In comparison with South Ossetia the NATO interference in Yugoslavia was completely unprovoked. And according to your logic it was all Yugoslavian internal affair nobody had right to intervene.

The fact that you and guys like you oppose Russian interference in South Ossetia but support NATO interference in Kosovo and absolutely unprovoked US invasion to Iraq just shows what an imperialist hypocrites you guys really are.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Serb
All they want is to live peacefully on THEIR NATIVE LAND (aside Albanians in Kosovo) and not be conquered and killed by Georgians.

Yep, all they want is peace

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/georgi19607.htm

Georgian Villages in South Ossetia Burnt, Looted

(Java, August 13, 2008) – Human Rights Watch researchers in South Ossetia on August 12, 2008, saw ethnic Georgian villages still burning from fires set by South Ossetian militias, witnessed looting by the militias, and learned firsthand of the plight of ethnic Ossetian villagers who had fled Georgian soldiers during the Georgian-Russian conflict over the breakaway region of South Ossetia.

In South Ossetia, Human Rights Watch researchers traveling on the evening of August 12 on the road from the town of Java to Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, witnessed terrifying scenes of destruction in four villages that used to be populated exclusively by ethnic Georgians. According to the few remaining local residents, South Ossetian militias that were moving along the road looted the Georgian villages and set them on fire. Human Rights Watch saw numerous vehicles carrying South Ossetian militia members, as well as Russian military transports moving in the direction of Tskhinvali.

Numerous houses in the villages of Kekhvi, Nizhnie Achaveti, Verkhnie Achaveti and Tamarasheni had been burnt down over the last day – Human Rights Watch researchers saw the smoldering remnants of the houses and household items. The villages were virtually deserted, with the exception of a few elderly and incapacitated people who stayed behind either because they were unable to flee or because they were trying to save their belongings and cattle.

“The remaining residents of these destroyed ethnic Georgian villages are facing desperate conditions, with no means of survival, no help, no protection, and nowhere to go,” said Tanya Lokshina at Human Rights Watch.

In the village of Nizhnie Achaveti, Human Rights Watch researchers spoke to an elderly man who was desperately trying to rescue his smoldering house using two half-empty buckets of dirty water brought from a spring. He told Human Rights Watch that the vast majority of the residents, including his family, fled the village when active fighting between Georgian forces and South Ossetian militias broke out on August 8, but he decided to stay to look after the cattle. He said members of the South Ossetian militia came to his house on August 11, and tried to take away some household items. When he protested, they set the house on fire and left. The man said he had no food or drinking water; his hands were burned and hair was singed – apparently as he was unsuccessfully trying to extinguish the fire – and he appeared to be in a state of shock. He said that there were about five to ten elderly and sick people left in the village, all in a similar desperate condition, and many of the houses were burned.

In the village of Kekhvi, many houses were set on fire between 6.30 pm and 7.30 pm on August 12 – they were ablaze as Human Rights Watch researchers moved along the road. Two elderly women from Kekhvi were weeping as they told Human Rights Watch about what happened in the village. One of them explained that the members of South Ossetian militias passed by the village and stopped at her house and “threw something” that set it on fire. She did not manage to rescue anything from the house and at the time of the interview could not even enter the house as it was still burning. She had no money on her and did not know if she could survive in this situation.

Human Rights Watch researchers also saw armed Ossetian militia members in camouflage fatigues taking household items – furniture, television sets, heaters, suitcases, carpets, and blankets – out of houses in the village of Nizhnie Achaveti and loading them into their trucks. Explaining the looters’ actions, an Ossetian man told Human Rights Watch, “Of course, they are entitled to take things from Georgians now – because they lost their own property in Tskhinvali and other places.”

A representative of the local administration in the town of Java told Human Rights Watch that the authorities had arrested two men who were looting the ethnic Georgian villages, but was adamant that they were not members of the South Ossetian militias. His colleague, however, said, “Isn’t that what they [Georgians] have been doing to us? These old people shouldn’t be complaining – they should be happy they weren’t killed.”

International humanitarian law applicable to the fighting between South Ossetian militias and Georgian forces prohibits attacks on civilian property, as well as looting or pillaging. Individuals, including commanders, participating in the deliberate or reckless destruction or looting of civilian property are responsible for war crimes. International humanitarian law also prohibits “acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population.”

Russian Minister of Internal Affairs Rashid Nurgaliev said there would be “decisive and tough” measures taken against looters.

“The Russian government should be held to this promise to punish looters but much more needs to be done to ensure that all sides protect civilians,” said Holly Cartner, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch.

Human Rights Watch researchers also interviewed South Ossentian women displaced from the Leningori district of South Ossetia. The women, from the mountain villages of Tsinachari, Monasteri, Zakori, Tsubeni and Tsair, told Human Rights Watch that they had fled with children and elderly people when Georgian military personnel entered their villages on the night of August 7/8.

The displaced persons spent several days in the woods with brief respites in neighboring villages before being picked up by South Ossetian militia and transported to the town of Java. This group of approximately 100 people was accommodated in the Java school building for the night and was due to be moved by buses to North Ossetia in Russia on August 13.

A woman from Tsinachari told Human Rights Watch,


The Georgians came to the village at around two o’clock in the morning. They told us not to be afraid and said that if our men wouldn’t shoot, they wouldn’t shoot either. They shot in the air – probably trying to frighten us. They entered the houses, checked identification documents, even took away the passports from some of our neighbors. They also looked for young guys and for the men. Though all our males were already gone by then – they joined the militia and hid themselves in the woods. The Georgians were also looking for firearms but our men had taken their weapons with them, so there was nothing much to find. We were very scared and could not stay in the village while the Georgians were there, so we also fled into the woods. For the first night, we just walked non-stop.



A woman from Tsair, who fled with her two small children, said that her husband and brother were both in the militia, and told Human Rights Watch that the Georgian soldiers stole whatever money she kept at the house. They also took away the rifle that the men in the family had left behind as well as the passports of the residents, all of whom have citizenship in the Russian Federation.

Another woman from Tsinachari told Human Rights Watch that on August 8, a group she was with was stopped in the woods by the Georgian military. According to the woman, the soldiers said, “Tell your men not to open fire. If they don’t shoot we aren’t going to shoot either.”

During the time they spent in the woods the fleeing civilians were provided with food and assistance by the members of South Ossetian militia, mostly their own relatives. When the militia finally drove them to Java, the women said a wounded man was transported along with them. He was a member of the South Ossetia militia who they were told had been seized by Georgian soldiers in the mountains, beaten up and released. He suffered several broken ribs from the beating.

Note especially the cruelty of the gerorgian soldiers when they say “Tell your men not to open fire. If they don’t shoot we aren’t going to shoot either.” They also wasn't so fair to kill a captured terrorist, just beat him up and released him. They are certainly a bunch of war criminals.

[Naked Gents Rut]

They have only one receipe how to handle those "internal affairs" - kill, kill and more time kill.

So? Don't act like Russia didn't do the same in Chechnya.

And according to your logic it was all Yugoslavian internal affair nobody had right to intervene.

Exactly.

The fact that you and guys like you oppose Russian interference in South Ossetia but support NATO interference in Kosovo and absolutely unprovoked US invasion to Iraq just shows what an imperialist hypocrites you really are.

I don't support NATO interference in Yugoslavia or the American invasion of Iraq. Both were in violation of international law and the UN charter, just like the Russian interference in Georgia. The U.S. and Russia are just as bad as each other.

[Serb]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Yep, all they want is peace

In the Caucasus it's always been an "eye for an eye". The Ossetians are certainly not the people who easily forgive their most hated enemies who previously did the same with thier homes.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut
I don't support NATO interference in Yugoslavia or the American invasion of Iraq. Both were in violation of international law and the UN charter, just like the Russian interference in Georgia. The U.S. and Russia are just as bad as each other.

How the Russian interference in South Ossetia was in violation of the UN charter?
The UN approved the precense of our peacekeepers there to prevent further bloodbathes. Our peacekeepers have been attacked and outnumbered by Georgians 15:1, so they clearly could not fulfill its mission without reinforcements. And after the Georgian aggression we immediately initiated an emergency UN session, but our attempts to put pressure on Georgia diplomatically via UNSC and force it to stop its aggression vs. SO have been blocked. The UN just couldn't make a resolution, while our peacekeepers were still under fire and were dying there. You think we should let them die and do nothing to save them?