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It's war. Part III

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  • The true size of Russia's lies has now become clear. While Russia was claiming 2000 civilians were killed in the first day the reality is that in the entire conflict just 45 civilians died. Clearly Russia deliberately VASTLY exaggerated civilian deaths in order to come up with an excuse to attack Georgia.


    The Genocide in South Ossetia
    Posted by: Steve LeVine on August 15

    The death toll is in for South Ossetia, where Russia accused Georgia of genocide, citing the murder of more than 1,500 civilians for a humanitarian invasion of Georgia.

    The figure appears to be about four dozen. Quoting a hospital where virtually all the dead appear to have been taken, since the morgue was without electricity, The Wall Street Journal’s Andrew Osborn puts the figure at 45; and Human Rights Watch says it was about 44. There may have been an additional few victims whose bodies did not reach the hospital.

    O and G readers from the State Department and elsewhere have written me privately that they regard Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili as reckless, irrational, and megalomaniacal. They and others I trust regard Saakashvili with opprobrium for bringing on Russia’s wrath.

    That Russia would defend South Ossetia was certain. But increasing evidence makes the attack look well pre-planned, not spontaneous. And the authentic death toll makes the justification appear to be a pretext for that attack.

    I had a Skype call from Tbilisi tonight from Lawrence Sheets, with whom I reported from the Caucasus from 1992 through 2003. He was then with Reuters; now he’s the regional representative for the International Crisis Group.

    Sheets says that he’s pored over the events leading up to the fighting, and says that Saakashvili was left with a choice on August 7th — allow a devastating South Ossetian attack on Georgian villages adjacent to the regional capital of Tskhinvali, or stop it. And Saakashvili decided to stop it. Sheets doesn’t regard that as reckless.

    The course of events make it appear that the West may countenance both effective Russian annexation of both South Ossetia and Abkhazia, under the guise of a form of independence, and occupation of swaths of Georgia proper. The best scenario seems to be only temporary occupation before a permanent imposition of the former — the annexation part.

    We got a picture of what that occupation could look like, at least for now, in the Georgian city of Gori today. Under the watchful eyes of Russian soldiers sitting on tanks, a paramilitary soldier stole two new SUVs belonging to United Nations officials, then dispersed them and journalists by firing into the air. As described by Yaroslav Trofimov, my former Wall Street Journal colleague, three of the U.N. officials escaped by jumping into his car, which then sped away.


    So what we have is Russia deliberately arming their surrogates and having their surrogates launch devastating artillery attacks on Georgia hoping to provoke a response which Russia could use to attack. Immediately as soon as Georgia took the bait Russia's military launched their planned attack and simultaneously spun lies with their propaganda machine. Making claims of 2000 dead civilians and blocking independent journalists from reporting on the ground because the Russians didn't want people to know how big their lies really were.

    The west needs to understand that Putin's new Russia is a militant expansionist state which is more then willing to create conflicts in order to force it's hegemony on other former Soviet states. Or at the very least block them from pursuing independent policies & alliances. I would be very worried if I was the Ukraine.
    Last edited by Dinner; August 17, 2008, 05:38.
    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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    • That story was already posted on #105. What amazes me is how often i saw the 'genocide' claim repeated by ignoramuses.

      I would be very worried if I was the Ukraine.
      They are very worried about Iran and want to join the missile defense.

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      • Originally posted by Traianvs


        Yeah, the Russians really screwed up. The eastern-Europeans are now certain to choose the western side. The Russian surely must have anticipated that. Maybe they realized they couldn't win the goodwill in the coming years anyway, so resorted to bullying (cf. the many disputes with eastern-european countries over the past few years)

        Perhaps all part of their master plan
        Russians bullying? Say it aint so!

        Another aspect of the Russian plan is to get control of that pipeline. If they can shut a valve on it their energy hold on western europe becomes that much stronger. If they can take the Germans and French out by threatening to shut down their economies then eastern europe can't stand for long.

        That's another reason why we need a US army in Poland, the Russians can't pull our strings.
        Last edited by Lancer; August 17, 2008, 11:03.
        Long time member @ Apolyton
        Civilization player since the dawn of time

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        • Merkel said today that Georgia is to become a NATO member and that NATO will help rebuild the Georgian military.

          Germany

          Now the Germans better build a better military in case NATO has to drive across Russia to save Georgia, which is the tricky bit of such a commitment.

          http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080817...y_080817140015;_ylt=AtMj2lZd0LlfaDFZZCRZTMVbbBAF
          Long time member @ Apolyton
          Civilization player since the dawn of time

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          • Originally posted by Kuciwalker
            Look at a ****ing globe. If Russia launched a bunch of ICBMs at the US, where do you think they would go? Over Poland? Hell no. The missiles fly over the Arctic.

            It's just rocket science.
            1) Who says in case of WW3 we will aim only US, but not its NATO allies in Europe?
            2) The number of interceptors will be increased, I guess, when the system will become effective.
            3) The radar in Czechia can scan the Russian territory up to the Ural mountains.

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            • "French president demands Russia comply with truce "

              http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080817/...georgia_russia;_ylt=AvGD5CqtGEKqgyGseMk1Jl.ROrgF

              Germany and France? Are they drunk? Very glad to see them finally standing up to Russia.
              (Without actually invading and heading for Moscow)
              Long time member @ Apolyton
              Civilization player since the dawn of time

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              • Originally posted by Lancer
                Merkel said today that Georgia is to become a NATO member and that NATO will help rebuild the Georgian military.
                Great. But don't expect us to do nothing next time when your Georgian puppet will try to solve the South Ossetian and Abkhazian problems by bombarding cities, killing our peacekeepers and citizens.
                They'll do it again - they'll get the same ass-kicking response again. Simple as that.
                Are you sure you want such partner in NATO?

                Btw, isn't it against the NATO rules to accept a new member who has an unresolved territorial disputes?

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                • Originally posted by Lancer
                  "French president demands Russia comply with truce "

                  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080817/...georgia_russia;_ylt=AvGD5CqtGEKqgyGseMk1Jl.ROrgF

                  Germany and France? Are they drunk? Very glad to see them finally standing up to Russia.
                  (Without actually invading and heading for Moscow)
                  Oh really?
                  Hours after our president said that we will start withdrawal at Aug. 18?
                  Good for them!

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                  • Originally posted by Serb


                    Great. But don't expect us to do nothing next time when your Georgian puppet will try to solve the South Ossetian and Abkhazian problems by bombarding cities, killing our peacekeepers and citizens.
                    Don't tell you proxies to attack the Georgian military in order to set up a pretext and everything will be fine.
                    I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                    For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                    • Originally posted by Traianvs


                      Yeah, the Russians really screwed up. The eastern-Europeans are now certain to choose the western side. The Russian surely must have anticipated that. Maybe they realized they couldn't win the goodwill in the coming years anyway, so resorted to bullying (cf. the many disputes with eastern-european countries over the past few years)

                      Perhaps all part of their master plan
                      You suggest we should have just seat and watch how Georgians are killing our peacekeepers and civilians?

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                      • So what? It is sovereign territory and Russia has no more right to veto it then they did to veto US troop movements in West Germany. You're guessing at what might happen and are paranoidly picking the worst possible scenario and then claiming it as a fact.

                        I know this treaty has been in the works for years but giving Russia's down right criminal behavior in recent weeks can you really blame the Poles and Ukrainians for wondering about Russia's intentions?
                        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                        • Serb buddy, I gotta be frank with you, I think your country needs to find something else to do because this isn't working out. We do want such a partner in NATO. We'll put US/NATO forces on the border with South Ossetia and if your puppets use their artillery on our boys, we'll be the ones to invade the place.
                          Long time member @ Apolyton
                          Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                          • What's so magical about the 18th?
                            Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                            "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                            He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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                            • The 18th?
                              Long time member @ Apolyton
                              Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                              • Originally posted by Serb

                                You suggest we should have just seat and watch how Georgians are killing our peacekeepers and civilians?
                                We both know that Russia deliberately gave Georgian citizens Russian citizenship just so they'd have an excuse to mettle in the affairs of their neighbors. Honestly, if Russia gave everyone in Wales Russia citizenship would you expect the UK to take such obvious provocations laying down? If the US announced that all Chechnians were US citizens would Russia just accept it?

                                Regarding "peacekeepers", actually Russian combatants, given that Russia's other claims have been independently proven to be lies I am now also doubtful of Russia's other claims in this case.
                                Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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