It's war. Part II

[Zkribbler]

Russia has learned their lessons on how to "win a war". Here's the concept:

1) Pick a fight with someone you can beat

2) Use proxy rebels to provoke the other side into attacking your own troops, so that you can claim to be "the good guys".

3) Attack big time and beat the opposition in a few days

4) Pull out before occupation, and avoid the long grinding partisan war that you would be bound to lose anyway.

5) Call it a day

Hey! That kinda sounds like we did in Grenada. Only they didn't attack our troops; they seized our medical students.

[DaShi]

Now it comes down to how the West should punish Russia.

[Chemical Ollie]

Yeah, you have learned the concept. To bad you change politicians every 8 years and have to relearn from the start.

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Serb


He is pretty real, if you ask me.
Though they work as one team, I guess. Like two galley-slaves (c). on one galley.

What kind of government would you like to see for Russia? Republic? Totalitarianism? Communism? Democracy?

What would be Serb's choice if you had it to make?

[Serb]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
3 going on atm IIRC.

ok. Then we lost first Chechen war, won second Chechen war and won first Georgian war.
Happy now?

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Serb
And how many wars do you thing we fought recently?

My timeframe was the last few decades, but okay...

Afghanistan, Chechnya (two times), and the war on Berezovski?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lancer


What kind of government would you like to see for Russia? Republic? Totalitarianism? Communism? Democracy?

Presidential republic, like we have now.

What would be Serb's choice if you had it to make?

Serbinism.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by DaShi
Now it comes down to how the West should punish Russia.

Develop technologies to get independent of oil and tell them to F.O.

Like in 2050 or something

[Serb]

Originally posted by Traianvs


My timeframe was the last few decades, but okay...

Afghanistan, Chechnya (two times), and the war on Berezovski?

see above

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Serb

ok. Then we lost first Chechen war, won second Chechen war and won first Georgian war.
Happy now?

By the way it ain't over till the fat lady sings. Georgia as well as Russia want to file a complaint at the international court at the Hague that their adversary comitted war crimes.

This is getting teh crazy

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Serb

Soviets did.
Those tanks were there from the collapse of the USSR. Have you seen them? It's mostly an obsolete T-55s from old Soviet warehouses. Russia didn't supply SO with modern weaponry as far as I know. Feel free to prove me wrong. I just don't know was it forbiden or not to supply them, but even so (hypotetically) I see no problem with that since USA trained and equiped Georgia with modern weaponry all those years openly.

Ahh...that explains things. Rebel forces are allowed to keep out dated weapons. I can see that. I would have a problem if Russia was supplying them recently however. Peacekeepers should never supply either side with weapons. WRT The US arming Georgia...Georgia is a Country. They have a right to ally with whoever they want and get the military hardware they want...that one should be a no brainer.

A tiny 70K people who went through a nighmare of Georgian invasion just 17 years wanted to repeat that nightmare once again? Don't make me laugh. After the cease-fire they are de-facto independednt. The fact that they weren't internationally recognized as independent state didn't prevent them from enjoing a full and peacefull life. They just rebuild their country from the previous war and healed their mental wounds. What makes you think they wanted to risk the devastation of their country (and their country is devastated now and they perfectly understood it would be in case of another war vs. Georgia, 'cause they are hopelessly outnumbered) to ... wait a second... what for? You think they thought they could march to Tbilisi and force Saak to capitulate and recognize them? What makes you so sure they knew Russia will help them if they commite an insane, suicide aggression vs. Georgia? Russia would never aid them in case if they were the aggressors. Anyhow, in any case that mean devastation of their country, thousands of KIA and very likely defeat if they are on their own. And it's such a sacrifice for a hypotetical posibility (pretty tiny) to win their independence through war with. They just didn't need that 'cause they already lived like independent people and sooner or later Georgia would have to realize that they have no chance to make SO be a part of Georgia. Sure they want to be recognized as sovereign state, but a pre-war staus quo was ok for them. Georgia on the other hand was quite unhappy about the status qoe, 'cause the far the things remained unchanged the greater the probability SO will be de-juro sovereign. It was Hitlershvili who promised his voters he will bring SO and Abkhazia into Georgia by all means necessary. He was the only one who wanted this war, nobody else.

Yes, I can see the political climate that existed in Georgia make the South Ossetians think that it might be now or never...particularly if they were promised Russian support. It would not be the first time a people had said "live free or die". The suprise for the South Ossetians may have been how strong Georgia's response was to their provocations.

Hell, we warned the west in UN many times that Hitlershvili is preparing for an agression. Nobody listenend to us. Sure we saw that he is going to invade and solve this issue by military means. And we have intel, so our troops were on high alert.
We were ready for this scenario, but that doesn't mean we are responsible for Saak's decision to attack.

From what I can tell from UN documents is that Abkhazia was Russia's concern...not South Ossetia. In fact, the silence in the UNSC about South Ossetia supports rather than deflects the critisism of Russia.

Who said we want to annex SO? We will not protest if SO will be independent state and I bet be the first to recognize them. I don't know where you get the idea we are dreaming about this tiny piece of land. They can be an independent state and enjoy open borders, same economic space, same currency (they use our roubles as their currency), etc with Russia. That's how it was before the Georgian invasion. Basically they don't need to a part of Russia de-juro to be a part of Russia de-facto.

I think you misunderstood me here. I was saying that if the Russians really believe that the Ossetian people should be independent, then why did they not offer to give up North Ossetia when demanding that Georgia give up South Ossetia?

Clearly the reason is because North Ossetia is part of their soverign territory. Yet they feel free to demand that Georgia give up part of its soverign territory.

It is equally clear that the Russians have been subverting the whole situation by offering passports to all comers from the breakaway region. This is not the act of the impartial mediator that Russia would have the world believe that they are.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


Hey! That kinda sounds like we did in Grenada. Only they didn't attack our troops; they seized our medical students.

Grenada is a very interesting situation in that it was British territory occupied by Cuban troops. Very weird....

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie


Develop technologies to get independent of oil and tell them to F.O.

Like in 2050 or something

This is the second time I have seen the year 2050 referenced on Poly today (The other being about Clinton's campaign).

Everybody knows this is the year the game ends, right?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Solver
PGM = precision guided missile
MLRS = multiple rocket launcher system

Serb was right, precision guided munition, which can mean bombs, missiles, or even arty shells.

[PLATO]

In Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian provincial capital now under Russian control, the body of a Georgian soldier lay in the street along with debris as separatist fighters launched rockets at a Georgian plane soaring overhead.

A tour by AP journalists found the heaviest damage around the government center. Near the city center, pieces of tanks lay near a bomb crater. The turret of one tank was blown into the front of the printing school across the street. A severed foot lay on the sidewalk nearby. Several residential areas seemed to have little damage beyond shattered windows

(Bolding is mine)

This doesn't seem to go with the Russian line of "genocide" on the civilians. Oh...I guess the USSR left a bunch of rockets laying around also when they left.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26116598/