It's war. Part II

[Dinner]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Does anyone else find it ironic to see a Russian invoking the Kosovo precedent given thier own wars to crush independence movements in breakaway provinces? How does one support that principle in one instance and ignore it in others when it applies much more?

Why... When your side is the one doing it, of course.

[Arrian]

Does anyone else find it ironic to see a Russian invoking the Kosovo precedent...

Sure, that's right up there with the nations who intervened in Kosovo now suddenly signing a different tune.

Hypocrits, all of 'em.

-Arrian

[Dinner]

Russia: Baltic States and Poland "will pay" for supporting Georgia. Other then diplomatically neither the Baltic States nor Poland have done anything to support Georgia so it seems not only is Russia paranoid but they're vindictive in their paranoia.

Russia Warns Baltics, Poland To Pay For Georgia Stance-Report


RIGA, Latvia (AFP)--Russia's ambassador to Latvia Monday warned the Baltic states and Poland that they would pay for their criticism of the Kremlin over the conflict in Georgia, the Baltic news agency BNS reported.

"One must not hurry on such serious issues, as serious mistakes can be made that have to be paid for a long time afterwards," Alexander Veshnyakov was quoted as saying by BNS.

Contacted by AFP, a spokesman for the Russian embassy in Riga confirmed the ambassador's comments but declined to elaborate.

Veshnyakov's remarks followed a joint statement Saturday by Latvia's President Valdis Zatlers and his counterparts from Estonia, Lithuania and Poland which called on the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to oppose Russia's "imperialist" policy towards Georgia.

The three Baltic states -- which were part of the Soviet Union -- and Poland are staunch allies of Georgia, a former Soviet republic.

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland are now members of the E.U. and NATO.

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Corrected Aug. 11, 200809:09 ET (13:09 GMT)Dow Jones Newswires

08-11-080842ET

The three Baltic states -- which were part of the Soviet Union -- and Poland are staunch allies of Georgia, a former Soviet republic.

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland are now members of the E.U. and NATO.

(In "Russia Warns Baltics, Poland To Pay For Georgia Stance-Report" published 1242 GMT it was misstated that Poland was a member of the Soviet Union.)

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Copyright (c) 2008 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.

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[Solver]

Wow, we're in the news.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Russia: Baltic States and Poland "will pay" for supporting Georgia. Other then diplomatically neither the Baltic States nor Poland have done anything to support Georgia so it seems not only is Russia paranoid but they're vindictive in their paranoia.



http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/Ne...0Stance-Report

Russia can take their threats and shove them. We will arm more, NATO will build more bases here and Russias intelligence and informational warfare activities will be severely curtailed. Too bad the Georgians are paying the price of this wake up call.

[DanS]

I don't know for sure how this started, but Russia's going to have to wrap up its punitive expedition ASAP.

If Russia wishes to change the duly-elected status quo, it has another thing coming.

[Zenn-La]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Ok, tell us Serb how can anyone take your claims that Georgia is the agressor seriusly?


Dude Russia is a great power while Georgia is a weak eastern European country. Can you explain what in the world they would have been thinking when they decided "ah hell lets just start a war against a major nuclear power for a bit of fun!"

Haha, that is like Canada attacking the United States tomorrow, riding into America in Canadian tanks (Zamboni's), wearing goalie mask & armed with hockey sticks.

[Saras]

nonono, Russians are teh good guys

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm:

Russian troops have entered Georgia from the breakaway region of Abkhazia, reaching the town of Senaki, officials from both Russia and Georgia say.

The Russian defence ministry said its troops had moved in to stop Georgia from attacking Russian forces in South Ossetia, another breakaway region.

As the fighting continued in South Ossetia, foreign envoys were pressing for a ceasefire in the conflict.

Each side accuses the other of carrying out atrocities in the region.

[GePap]

Seems the Russians will help the Abkhaz to drive Georgian forces from the Kodori Gorge.

They always say that possession is 9/10th of the law, so the question is, when Russia decides to stop beating up on Georgia now (and humiliating Saak), what kind of terms will it demand with regard to these two areas.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Arrian


Sure, that's right up there with the nations who intervened in Kosovo now suddenly signing a different tune.

Hypocrits, all of 'em.

-Arrian

Hear hear, good sir!!

[Saras]

Originally posted by GePap
Seems the Russians will help the Abkhaz to drive Georgian forces from the Kodori Gorge.

They always say that possession is 9/10th of the law, so the question is, when Russia decides to stop beating up on Georgia now (and humiliating Saak), what kind of terms will it demand with regard to these two areas.

These towns are not in the Kodori gorge, they're more southern, and on the direct route to Tbilisi.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by PLATO

No, I think Georgia was definately in the wrong for their response, but it is their country. Given these particular circumstances, I can see some type of Russian response...particularly if the peacekeeping agreements allowed it. My point, which I suspect you know, was that the Russian respose has been way over the top on proportionality...which makes your discussion of it laughable.

How do you know this? So far I have seen Georgian forces rocketing SO, and some burned out Russian tanks. In response, the Russians have tried to force Georgian troops from SO (I don't know whether they have been completely successful in that regard) and and have bombed army barracks and other important logistical targets within Georgia proper. All in all it seems designed to cripple the Georgian military and prevent them from regrouping for another attack any time soon.

I don't see this as disproportionate, since it is what I'd do if I was them.

You need a new translator because this one is way wrong.
But then many things you spout off about are way wrong so no big suprise. If I had been running from you, I would never have said you had some valid points in there. I guess even a blind squirrel will find a nut occasionaly.

You couldn't if you tried.

Indeed, I agree that my country is no different from other major powers in that they exercise that power and that it is not always for the benefit of those on the receiving end. I don't know where I have ever said the US is without fault. I would be glad for you to cite where I led you to believe this. Now, there is no doubt that we disagree on some specific instances, but I challenge you to find a general all encompassing statement from me that says the US does no wrong. In fact, I would say that it is you that has the tunnel vision in that you can see no good that the US does. Hence my reluctance to respond to your incessant whining...it is certainly not because I am scared.

I don't see any powerful existent state doing much good in the long run, so that's moot (although for historical reasons I think China is less problematic than some of the others). I don't think any of them are defensible in any worthwhile sense. So insofar as you would wish to defend the actions of the US administration or any other power, you would probably find me in disagreement.

I don't really whine about the US. Like most people these days, I hold it in contempt and laugh at it. That's the reasonable reaction.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Saras


These towns are not in the Kodori gorge, they're more southern, and on the direct route to Tbilisi.

Keep up man - there are things happening in Abkhazia as well.

Given that Gori was the hub for Georgian deployments against S. Ossetia, there is some purely military merit for Russian forces to attack Georgian troops in the area. The only Western journalists I have read about nn the area say the Russians aren't moving into the city of Gori, but fighting around it. If the Russians move into Gori itself and push on, then that is more obvious as a politically driven punitive expedition.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Serb



As far as I know Kosovo is not a *real* country.
Its a province of Serbia. Its separatists happen to have the good luck of being supported by NATO.


Any difference?

I certainly don't see any difference. Do you Serb? Do you agree that neither should have been recognized as Independent?

[Dinner]

It sounds like they're trying to encircle Gori and avoid urban combat which would cost them a lot of men.