It's war. Part II

[Tattila the Hun]

I wonder, if Georgia would allow S. Ossetia to secede and join up with N. Ossetia, would Russia then allow Ossetia to get full independence?

[onodera]

Originally posted by Harovan
Why not put some Georgians in gulags in response? I believe Workuta, Magadan et al. are still thriving?

Medvedev has issued a special order to the Ministry of Interior to protect the Georgian diaspora from jingoist provocators.

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
I wonder, if Georgia would allow S. Ossetia to secede and join up with N. Ossetia, would Russia then allow Ossetia to get full independence?

N Ossetia is the only Caucasian republic that would not want to secede. They're Christians surrounded by Muslims. They'd be eaten alive, basically.

[onodera]

Oh, I've heard we've sent Chechens into the battle. I do not envy the Georgian snipers now.

[Saras]

So is seems other sources are little by little confirming Georgians actually deliberately fired arty on Tskhinvali...

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Saras
So is seems other sources are little by little confirming Georgians actually deliberately fired arty on Tskhinvali...

And they are also confirming that it was Saak who started all this mess, on the first day of the Olympiad.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by onodera

Why we are taking Gori:
1. Tskhinvali is very close to the border of SO and Georgia proper. We need a demilitarized buffer zone to prevent shelling.
2. It's an important transport hub. If we want to destroy Georgia's military, and we do, we can split their army in half and deal with each half separately by taking it, until they have no tanks, no artillery pieces, no planes, no boats and no military infrastructure left.

The Russian Deputy Prime Minister gave an interview on CNN a few hours ago. He stated: (a) there were no Georgian civilian casualties and (b) all the Russian want is peace in the area.

The truth is: (a) there are lots of Georgian civilian casualities and (b) even when the Georgians offer a cease fire and Russians continue attacking into non-disputed areas.

Face it. The Russian goverement is using the conflict between the Georgians and their break-away areas as an excuse to launch an attack and expand its borders.

[Gatekeeper]

The U.S. State Department is evacuating American diplomatic personnel from Georgia — 170 people or so, from what I've seen on the raw news wires. Not sure if civilians are among that number or not ...

Gatekeeper

[onodera]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Face it. The Russian goverement is using the conflict between the Georgians and their break-away areas as an excuse to launch an attack and expand its borders.

Not the borders, the sphere of influence. Did Lithuania expand the borders of the USA by joining NATO?

[Gatekeeper]

Gori said to have been completely occupied now, not just encircled ...

[Dinner]

Georgia is saying it is redeploying all forces to Tbilisi to defend the capital. They say it looks like Russia wants to take over the country and force the democratically elected government out of power.

[MarkG]

U.S. envoy accuses Russia of planning invasion

TBILISI (Reuters) - Russia prepared in advance for an invasion of Georgia, U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Matt Bryza told journalists after flying into Tbilisi on Monday.

"We heard statements saying that the Russian railroad troops that entered Abkhazia a couple of months ago were there for a humanitarian mission," he told journalists at the airport.

"Now we know the truth that these forces were there to rebuild the railway to allow ammunition and other military supplies to aid a Russian invasion."

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1134446620080811

Georgia: Reckless Saakashvili took on Russian Goliath Putin

Georgia’s attempt to seize control of the secessionist South Ossetia region has been a gamble too far, reckless in its timing and founded on a fundamental misjudgment.

President Saakashvili of Georgia thought that he had the West on his side but he has been outsmarted by Vladimir Putin, the Russian Prime Minister, who now holds all the cards.

Although Mr Saakashvili has had American military personnel training his army to serve in Iraq, there was never any question of Washington taking on the Russians on his behalf.

The military adventure had all the hallmarks of rushed planning and a fingers-crossed strategy, launched in the hope and expectation that the Russians would not react, but that if they did, the Americans and Georgia’s other Nato friends would come to his aid in one form or another. With President Bush at the Beijing Olympics, was, perhaps, the US eye off the ball when the Russians moved in?

After only three days, the Georgian leader has had to pull back, partly because his troops failed to seal off the Roki tunnel, 2½ miles (4km) long, that links South Ossetia with North Ossetia and provided passage for dozens of Russian tanks and armoured vehicles. It was a military blunder.

Five battalions of Russia’s 58th Army, which fought in Chechnya, drove through the tunnel. With 150 tanks, heavy artillery and overwhelmingly superior firepower, the Russian troops were able to seize control of all the heights around Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia.

The 58th, which is based at Vladikavkaz in the North Caucasus military district in Russia, was backed by ground-attack aircraft, presenting a formidable fighting package. At the same time there were indications that the Russians planned a second front, moving into Abkhazia. The tiny Georgian Army never stood a chance.

It was also a classic misreading on Mr Saakashvili’s part of the relationship between Washington and Moscow, and a misunderstanding of what Mr Putin was prepared to do to maintain his image as the tough guy in the region and on the world stage.

Mr Putin has on a number of occasions publicly dismissed any possibility that the Cold War could return. But the decision by Mr Saakashvili gave the Russian leader the opportunity he was waiting for to stamp his authority over Georgia and at the same time to **** a snook at the West. He knew that he could get away with pouring troops, armoured vehicles and artillery into South Ossetia to “protect” the majority Russian passport-holding inhabitants. All he had to do was wait for Mr Saakashvili to make the first move.

The seeds of the Georgian misadventure were sown in Bucharest at the Nato summit in April, where alliance leaders gave out mixed messages about their enthusiasm for Georgia to join the US-dominated organisation. Adroit diplomatic pressure by Mr Putin when he was Russian President forced a split in the alliance, with President Bush finding himself in a minority when he urged his colleagues to sign up Georgia for Nato’s membership action plan, the key stage to joining as a full member eventually.

Despite the summit’s declaration that both Georgia and Ukraine would definitely, some day, join the alliance, Mr Putin would have realised that Nato was not yet prepared to go all the way, fearing the damage that it might cause to relations with Moscow.

Mr Saakashvili put on a bold front, despite his disappointment, especially after Mr Bush had been so publicly in favour of Georgia joining Nato, and, probably, at that moment, started thinking about launching a military operation against the secessionists in South Ossetia, and, if successful, possibly to move against Abkhazia, the other separatist region. Perhaps he judged that Nato would then be spurred into action.

However, with Russian troops never far away, it was always going to be David versus Goliath. But this time a slingshot was not good enough. He had Mr Putin to deal with and there was never any doubt who would win that battle.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4500160.ece

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Agathon


Not necessarily. As I said above, I would degrade the Georgian military to a state of weakness in order that they not attack again. That means destroying logistical capacity, trucks, depots, airfields, etc.

That's just common sense.

While there may some strategic merit in what you say, the truth is that it would be incredibly unlikely for Georgia to try another attack after the response that they got from this one.

[Saras]

Originally posted by onodera

Not the borders, the sphere of influence. Did Lithuania expand the borders of the USA by joining NATO?

There's probably some sort of un-bridgeable divide between you and most Russians I know. For you it's all about spheres of influence, land, resources and who is whose prostitute.

Frankly, we were "the USA's sphere of influence" even during Soviet Union rule, because we hated what USSR stood for and wanted to join the free West. NATO membership is a formality in that sense. NATO membership also ensures that we never again become, barring a major treachery by NATO European allies, your "sphere of influence" (in your sense of the phrase, i.e., your troops on the ground and/or real prostitutes in high office.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by onodera

Not the borders, the sphere of influence.

What, what, what??? I thought the Russians were virtuous peacekeepers. You mean, there're not?!

[onodera]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


What, what, what??? I thought the Russians were virtuous peacekeepers. You mean, there're not?!

I never said we were. We weren't the aggressors, but we wouldn't miss our chance to watch Georgia take it in the ass (or as Georgian Defense Ministry put it, watch Russia take it around its willie).