It's war. Part II

[Dinner]

Lefty/Cruelty had an interesting idea. It's impossible to save Georgia at this point so why not teach the Russians a lesson about occupying their neighbors by funding and supplying Georgian rebel groups so that the Russian army faces a new little Afghanistan in the Caucasuses? We help the Georgian masses yearning to be free and the Russians get bogged down in Georgia and unable to continue their expansionism in places like the eastern Ukraine.

The Russians are well into Georgia now so it seems clear they're aiming at setting up a puppet state run by Putin cronies. Why not play a nice little game of proxy war and tie their army down? Resupply from Turkey or Armenia should be easy.

[Zkribbler]

From the BBC:

The headline isn't consistent with the body of the article. The article seems to state that, while Russian troops have made some incursions into Georgia, there is no large-scale advance.

I'm hoping the Russians will agree to EU mediating cease-fire talks.

Russian troops in Georgia advance


Moscow said troops had raided the town of Senaki to destroy a military base. It later said they had left the town.

Russian troops also pushed into Georgia from South Ossetia and were now outside the town of Gori, Georgia said.

US President George W Bush said it seemed "efforts might be under way to depose" the Georgian government.

Expressing his concern about the "dramatic and brutal escalation" of the conflict, Mr Bush called on Russia to reverse the course it appeared to be on and agree to an immediate ceasefire.

The UN Security Council is now discussing a draft resolution calling for a truce.

The current hostilities began late last week when Georgian forces launched a surprise attack to regain control of South Ossetia, which has had de facto independence since the end of a civil war in 1992.

The move followed days of exchanges of heavy fire with the Russian-backed separatists. In response to the Georgian crackdown, Moscow sent armoured units into South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Russian denial

Russia confirmed for the first time on Monday it had advanced beyond the borders of Abkhazia, saying it had launched an operation in the town of Senaki.

Later, a Russian defence official told Russian news agencies that its forces had withdrawn from Senaki and that they had forced out a Georgian unit which could have shelled South Ossetia.

Georgian officials also accused Russian troops of moving into the town of Zugdidi, near Abkhazia.

The Russians had issued an ultimatum to Georgian forces to disarm or face attack, and proceeded to occupy government buildings there, the Georgians said.

The conflict over South Ossetia also appeared to have widened when Georgia accused Russia of capturing the town of Gori, just 76km (47 miles) from Tbilisi.

"This is a total onslaught," Georgia's National Security Council secretary Alexander Lomaia told the AFP news agency, adding that Georgian troops were pulling back to defend Tbilisi.

Russia's defence ministry quickly issued a statement rejecting the claim, saying there were none of its troops in Gori.

Later, a spokesman for the Georgian interior ministry told the BBC that there had never been Russian troops in Gori.

He said the Russian Army had taken up a position just outside the town after destroying a military base and admitted the Georgian army had fled the area without putting up a fight.

Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze then said Russian forces had also entered the Black Sea port of Poti, the site of a major oil shipment facility.

"We regret that we have witnessed such developments without our Western partners intervening more actively," he said.

Russia's defence ministry denied troops had entered Poti, the Interfax news agency reported.

Meanwhile, officials in South Ossetia's secessionist government accused Georgia of bombing targets in the capital, Tskhinvali.

Nato plea

On Monday, EU envoys were attempting to broker a ceasefire agreement between Tbilisi and Moscow

Russia says it is responding to attacks by Georgia and protecting its citizens

Georgia's President Saakashvili agreed to the deal, but it was rejected by Russia, which said any negotiations could take place only after Georgian troops had pulled out of the disputed regions.

And leaders from both countries carried on a war of words, with Russia accusing Georgia of genocide, and President Saakashvili hitting back with claims of ethnic cleansing.

Mr Saakashvili accused Russia of trying to overthrow his government and claimed Russia was now in control of the majority of Georgian lands.

Russian officials denied they were seeking a regime change, and reiterated that they were responding to Georgian attacks and protecting Russian citizens - who make up the majority of the population of South Ossetia.

BBC diplomatic correspondent Bridget Kendall says the further Russia penetrates into Georgian territory, the harder it is for Moscow to claim it occupies the high ground.

But, our correspondent adds, the worrying question is - does the Russian leadership care about its reputation abroad any more?

Meanwhile, the Red Cross said it has visited several hospitals in Georgia and on Russian territory and warned that the humanitarian situation remained "very serious".

"It's still too early to say how many people have been killed or injured by the fighting," said Dominik Stillhart, the organisation's deputy director of operations.

"But our visits to these hospitals confirm that local medical facilities are dealing with a large number of wounded and dead."

In other developments:

• Georgia's foreign minister is due to meet Nato officials on Tuesday. Russia has also requested an emergency meeting with Nato, saying the organisation should hear Moscow's side before making any decisions

• The US and several European nations have begun to evacuate hundreds of their citizens from Georgia

• Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland issue a joint statement saying that as "once-captive nations of Eastern Europe" they share a "deep concern" about Russia's actions towards Georgia

• The G7 group of developed countries issues a strongly-worded statement calling on Russia to accept the EU-brokered ceasefire agreement

• French President Nicolas Sarkozy is to hold talks in Moscow and Georgia on Tuesday

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Lonestar

No, it's just normal turnover.

"Normal turnover" with French fighter jets on board US Aircraft carriers training take off and lands? This is not normal and instead is something different. I'm not saying they plan to enforce the proposed embargo of Iran but it is clearly an unusual show of force.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by carnide_
Bush just said: "Russia is a bad boy".
And thats it!

Well, everyone knew that. Basically he said Russia is a bad naughty boy but we won't do anything. This is, of course, to be expected.

[Lancer]

• Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland issue a joint statement saying that as "once-captive nations of Eastern Europe" they share a "deep concern" about Russia's actions towards Georgia

We should offer these nations discounts on weapons systems and definately a modern integrated air defense system of the first order. As long as the Russians don't control the sky their militaries can fight in the cities while waiting for any europower that dares to come to their rescue.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by The Vagabond

What kind of greed can there be wrt Georgia?

the greed of being in charge of a larger Georgian state instead of their small economically unviable break away enclaves. "Hey, I will make you head of the entire Georgian state backed up by the Russian Army and the Georgians can't stop us."

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Oerdin


"Normal turnover" with French fighter jets on board US Aircraft carriers training take off and lands? This is not normal and instead is something different. I'm not saying they plan to enforce the proposed embargo of Iran but it is clearly an unusual show of force.

You're out of your mind. Foreign naval aircraft land and take off of American warships all the time. Hell, just on one deployment we had Aussie and Singaporean helos practice landing on our cruiser.

I suppose you think that when Argentina practices off American carriers OH MY GOD THEY ARE GETTING READY TO INVADE THE FALKLANDS!





Or when the USMC operates off of RN carriers?




OH SCARY!

I know the Army isn't into joint training exercises as much as the Navy and Air Force, but come on.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Oerdin


the greed of being in charge of a larger Georgian state instead of their small economically unviable break away enclaves. "Hey, I will make you head of the entire Georgian state backed up by the Russian Army and the Georgians can't stop us."

Grabbing land with an unfriendly population is so unpractical in the 21st century. Why the hell would Russia want to take such a burden upon herself?


Wake up, Oerdin.

[Cort Haus]

No, he's too busy dreaming of another Afghanistan.

[Solver]

Originally posted by Lancer
We should offer these nations discounts on weapons systems and definately a modern integrated air defense system of the first order. As long as the Russians don't control the sky their militaries can fight in the cities while waiting for any europower that dares to come to their rescue.

Frankly, it's not like we have enough of a military to potentially fight in cities even if there were no planes in the combat area.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Solver


Frankly, it's not like we have enough of a military to potentially fight in cities even if there were no planes in the combat area.

It is my sincerest hope that NATO would be there for you if need be. Once under the Russian boot is enough for any nation...and then some.

[Solver]

I hope not to find out whether NATO countries would have the balls to actually do something or not, though.

Gotta love the concept of deterrence. On the one hand, I'm not sure that the big NATO countries would actually engage Russian troops if Russia ever invades any of the Baltic countries. On the other hand, I do believe that being in NATO is sufficient deterrent to make such an attack very unlikely.

[Elok]

Originally posted by PLATO
It is my sincerest hope that NATO would be there for you if need be. Once under the Russian boot is enough for any nation...and then some.

Don't worry. Like I said, Obama's like a young, black, liberal Reagan. He'll go over there and whine, "Mr. Putin, tear down this gigantic ****ing occupation force," and magically the Russians will vanish from the power of his charm. Then Western democracy will flower overnight. At least, that's what they say happened last time.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


Grabbing land with an unfriendly population is so unpractical in the 21st century. Why the hell would Russia want to take such a burden upon herself?


Wake up, Oerdin.

I hope you are right but it seems Russia's leaders are high on victory and want to push for the ouster of the democratically elected government. If Russia does that they may well find themselves with a region perpetually in rebellion which they cannot control because the west keeps giving them money, weapons, and training.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
No, he's too busy dreaming of another Afghanistan.

Come on! They're in Potsi now. Are they going to invade and occupy Georgia and then let it go? No, the Huberus of their leaders will demand they take it over and then then they'll find they're hugging a tar-baby which they can't get rid of.