A question about Religon and Progress

[ramseya]

You presume to know much about me.

I did know about you having been a Mennonite if not your recent conversion to Catholicism. What makes you think I don't know you or know where you stand on this?


Ben:

You seem to simply not accept speciation yet you referred to Darwin's finches earlier... The thing is that Darwin's finches were different species, even different genera. Now, as I said earlier, taxonomy has changed over the years and isn't quite an exact science, but if two organisms can not reproduce than they are surely not the same species (if they can reproduce, they may still not be the same species, of course so the reverse isn't necessarily true). The finches Darwin cataloged were:


* Genus Geospiza
o Large Cactus-finch, Geospiza conirostris
o Sharp-beaked Ground-finch, Geospiza difficilis
+ Vampire Finch, Geospiza difficilis septentrionalis
o Medium Ground-finch, Geospiza fortis
o Small Ground-finch, Geospiza fuliginosa
o Large Ground-finch, Geospiza magnirostris
+ Darwin's Large Ground-finch, Geospiza magnirostris magnirostris - possibly extinct (1957?)
o Common Cactus-finch, Geospiza scandens
* Genus Camarhynchus
o Vegetarian Finch, Camarhynchus crassirostris - sometimes separated in Platyspiza
o Large Tree-finch, Camarhynchus psittacula
o Medium Tree-finch, Camarhynchus pauper
o Small Tree-finch, Camarhynchus parvulus
o Woodpecker Finch, Camarhynchus pallidus - sometimes separated in Cactospiza
o Mangrove Finch, Camarhynchus heliobates
* Genus Certhidea
o Warbler Finch, Certhidea olivacea
* Genus Pinaroloxias
o Cocos Island Finch, Pinaroloxias inornata

Due to isolation, the same primordial species of finch developed into many different species.

Now if you will say that well they are still all finches or birds, what about this?

[Ben Kenobi]

I did know about you having been a Mennonite if not your recent conversion to Catholicism. What makes you think I don't know you or know where you stand on this?

The face that you were unaware that I am Catholic, leads me to believe you know me far less then you presume to do.

You seem to simply not accept speciation yet you referred to Darwin's finches earlier

That's the entire question of speciation of which taxonomy is the most important part.

Due to isolation, the same primordial species of finch developed into many different species.

That is Darwin's hypothesis. His actual experiment involves only one finch, Geospiza fortis, which was observed to change beak size in the span of 20 years with the introduction of a competing bird, displacing Fortis from their ecological niche.

The question then becomes is this new finch considered an entirely new species? It was still considered Geospiza fortis.

Now if you will say that well they are still all finches or birds, what about this?

His hypothesis that there was one primordial ancestor for all the birds, is as of yet, unproven.

[ramseya]

wow way to not check the picture.... wow I put somebody's picture of a baby and not the picture of archeopterix. wow

[ramseya]

Ben:

He showed how the beak changed... you take some of those bird and isolate them on an island (as all the other finches were isolated) and they will develop into a different species unable to reproduce with the original birds (just as the various species of finches did). His point was to show how a beak could change and imply that the different birds on the islands became different species through the same process.

[ramseya]

The face that you were unaware that I am Catholic, leads me to believe you know me far less then you presume to do.

Maybe I don't know you recently

[Ben Kenobi]

wow way to not check the picture.... wow I put somebody's picture of a baby and not the picture of archeopterix. wow

Amazingly clever.

He showed how the beak changed... you take some of those bird and isolate them on an island (as all the other finches were isolated) and they will develop into a different species unable to reproduce with the original birds

Unable to reproduce? Did he try to inseminate them?

His point was to show how a beak could change and imply that the different birds on the islands became different species through the same process.

His point I think is well taken. The one species differentiated, to form several subspecies all of which interbreed together, and vary according to the local environment.

[Zanarkand]

I would personally recommend a book called The Dawkins Delusion.:-)