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  • #76
    Originally posted by Krill

    Fiar point. I can;t really comment, I've only really been listening to politics since when labour came to power, so I can only learn from biased sources about the Tories which makes the whole thing a complete waste of time.
    That sucks man. When the Tories were in power, politics was about adulterous sex had wearing a Chelsea strip, and prostitutes using the Royal Mail to send Tory MPs samples of their faeces, MPs dying dressed in women's underwear while auto asphyxiating themselves for sexual pleasure, and, unlike Tony Blair, the leader wasn't content to shag his own mole-faced wife, but was slipping Edwina Currie a length.
    Only feebs vote.

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    • #77
      And of course, people like J. Edgar Hoover thought King was a socialist, especially when he spoke out so forcefully against the Vietnam war (calling it a colonizing war) and the Poor People's Campaign.

      He was most definately NOT a conservative... you can quibble over whether he was really a leftist or a socialist.
      No, Hoover wasn't the conservative. He was a classical liberal. Classical liberals hate these sorts of things. They are all about colonialism. You need to read your history Imran. Gladstone was the conservative who was against colonialism, whereas the liberal Disraeli was all for it.
      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
        Poly may have liberalized me a little.
        So instead of torturing your victims for hours before killing them you now simply give them cement galoshes and push them in the river?
        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


          No, Hoover wasn't the conservative. He was a classical liberal. Classical liberals hate these sorts of things. They are all about colonialism. You need to read your history Imran. Gladstone was the conservative who was against colonialism, whereas the liberal Disraeli was all for it.
          I'd say he was a progressive given his social views.
          Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Agathon


            That sucks man. When the Tories were in power, politics was about adulterous sex had wearing a Chelsea strip, and prostitutes using the Royal Mail to send Tory MPs samples of their faeces, MPs dying dressed in women's underwear while auto asphyxiating themselves for sexual pleasure, and, unlike Tony Blair, the leader wasn't content to shag his own mole-faced wife, but was slipping Edwina Currie a length.
            Yea, it pisses me off that I have to...

            ...wait, shouldn't THE SUN have had record high circlations during the tory days?
            You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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            • #81
              Though it probably did due to the lack of braodband in tis country...
              You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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              • #82
                Having a coherent position doesn't commit you to a revolution. You could use it to justify the status quo, but you still need a position.
                So what isn't self-consistant about any of what I've said? Conservatives see the world as less real then the spiritual world in neo-platonism. They see the world as flawed. Men are flawed, so they have to participate in politics because they seek to mitigate the harmful effects of the changes that society seeks to implement.

                What do they care about?
                They care primarily about people, the welfare of their brothers and sisters. Christian conservatives see value in what the bible teaches because they believe it offers a way of life that ought to be followed, and is the best for everyone out there. They see government as a servant to these overall goals, nothing more or less. When government acts contrary to these principles. Conservatives can support reforms that support what the bible teaches, but ones that seem a fundamental rejection of these principles do not fit.

                What kind of harm? Harm to welfare? To individual rights? If it's welfare, then axiologically they are just consequentialists. If it is individual rights, then they are axiologically classical liberals or Thomists or whatever.
                I would argue that they are Thomists in general. The overall conservative coalition includes these Thomists along with classical liberals, (in the mould of mill and stuart and rand), along with libertarians.

                What makes the way of life of the past a way worth preserving?
                People generally have better well being when we live our lives in that manner.

                You can do better, Ben. You gave me a collection of theories. As Plato would say, I don't want to know that there are lots of conservative theories, I want to know what makes them conservative.
                As a typical conservative I'm more concerned with where the ideas come from. You ask this question, and I'm like, why does that matter? I would say conservatives are pretty much wholeheartedly Thomists. Conservativism is a brand that pretty much only goes back as far as Edmund Burke. It developed as a counter to the French Revolution. I would say that pretty much what Burke says in his essay on the revolution is what conservatives are these days.

                Edit: One change. Conservatives don't believe that society is a necessary evil, rather that it is good in itself. They seek a balance between individualism and collectivism.
                Last edited by Ben Kenobi; May 29, 2008, 16:24.
                Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                • #83
                  As a typical conservative I'm more concerned with where the ideas come from.

                  And this is why you lose.
                  You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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                  • #84
                    And this is why you lose.


                    Ok. If you want a radical movement that makes you feel good about change, we aren't your folks I'm afraid.

                    We are more concerned about where the ideas come from then where they are going. Brand loyalty isn't very important.
                    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      [q=BK]We are more concerned about where the ideas come from then where they are going. Brand loyalty isn't very important.[/q]

                      Honestly, I'm suprised you haven;t realised how stupid those two sentences are yet.
                      You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


                        I would say no. You can't be a sincere socialist and a Christian at the same time.
                        Epic fail, in Europe there are several parites based precisley on that premise.

                        Christian socialism


                        Socialism which means love, cooperation and brotherhood in every department of human affairs, is the only outward expression of a Christian's faith. I am firmly convinced that whether they know it or not, all who approve and accept competition and struggle against each other as the means whereby we gain our daily bread, do indeed betray and make of no effect the "will of God."
                        Capitalism is the way of the devil and exploitation. If you really want to look at things through the eyes of Jesus Christ — who I think was the first socialist — only socialism can really create a genuine society.
                        If we all came of the same father and mother, of Adam and Eve, how can they say or prove that they are better than we, if it be not that they make us gain for them by our toil what they spend in their pride?
                        There even exist people who call temselves Christian Communists.

                        And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and in fellowship [...] 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things in common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (King James Version)
                        Can see why they think that way, even if I don't agree.
                        Last edited by Heraclitus; May 29, 2008, 16:44.
                        Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                        The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                        The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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                        • #87
                          someone is quote drunk before their final exam Hera
                          You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Krill
                            someone is quote drunk before their final exam Hera
                            Yes I am.
                            Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                            The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                            The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Hera:

                              Socialism which means love, cooperation and brotherhood in every department of human affairs, is the only outward expression of a Christian's faith.
                              That's the first error right there. What about practicing your faith? Attending church? Preaching the gospel to others. Faith AND works together.

                              I am firmly convinced that whether they know it or not, all who approve and accept competition and struggle against each other as the means whereby we gain our daily bread, do indeed betray and make of no effect the "will of God."
                              That's fine, but is that restricted merely to our daily bread? I daresay they mean quite a bit more.

                              Capitalism is the way of the devil and exploitation. If you really want to look at things through the eyes of Jesus Christ — who I think was the first socialist — only socialism can really create a genuine society.
                              Christ said we should abandon all and follow him, not try to take things from our neighbours. Why should we care what they have if we have given up all that we own? Why should those who have things be forced to give them up to others? Shouldn't it be voluntary?

                              If we all came of the same father and mother, of Adam and Eve, how can they say or prove that they are better than we, if it be not that they make us gain for them by our toil what they spend in their pride?
                              Why is someone 'better' then you just because they make more money.

                              I'll say it again. Socialism and Christianity are incompatible. Anyone who calls themselves a Christian socialist is a socialist first who pays lip service to Christianity.
                              Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                              "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                              2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
                                Hera:



                                That's the first error right there. What about practicing your faith? Attending church? Preaching the gospel to others. Faith AND works together.
                                If you are a Christian socialist you would consider going to Church and preaching the gospel as furthuring the cause of socialism and Christianity.
                                Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                                The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                                The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                                Comment

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