Europe Without Christianity: Better or Worse?

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I nelieve it was Valens or Valentins, but the link to the site was on my computer before it crashed last year and now I can't find it.

I've never heard about this and it would contradict everything I learned about ancient and medieval slavery. And it's impossible to find information on a slavery ban. There were several Christian personalities advocating one's own labor as virtue and called for mitigation in slavery laws (which started under a pagan emperor: Hadrian), etc., but neither was there a consequent legislation nor a common Christian pressure on this issue.

[Ben Kenobi]

Here I am not concerned with constructing a detailed what-if scenario with a point of departure and plausable causalities leading from it to the present time.

What I am interested in are your opinions on how European history would have looked had Christianity remained a sect confined to the Middle East.

Ok, we'd start our alternate history with the retirement of Diocletian in May of 305. Galerius comes to the throne and renews the persecutions. He has massive uprisings in response throughout Rome. Galerius then publishes a massive edict ordering the expulsion and the execution of all Christians from the territory of the Roman Empire. Essentially the reverse of the Edict of Milan.

Rather then the relative peace from Constantine, Rome splits in two, east and west, in 325 AD. Eastern Roman Empire battles a much, much stronger Persia, and is defeated, losing all of Mesopotamia, and Syria, all down to Jerusalem. The Persians complete the Avesta, and also persecute Christians throughout the near east.

Christians flee to Egypt and Africa, and set up a states in Carthage and Egypt. Carthage successfully defeats a Vandalic invasion, while Spain falls to the Goths and all of Italy and France to the Huns.

Western Roman Empire continues on and is defeated by Attilla in 420, and Attila rules over the Western Roman Empire.

Would there have been a longer "dark age" in Europe, or were pagan Europeans ripe to be civilized come Church or not? (I think that the dark ages would have been longer.)

First off, they were already Christian. Secondly, it is more important what happens in the East.

Wars? Obviously no Crusades (except perhaps the other way around.)

What, you mean Jihad? Unlikely. Without Constantine it is very likely that the Roman Empire would have split immediately after the reign of Diocletian, and since the Persians were stronger then, that the Eastern Empire would have been much weaker. This in turn prevents the spread of Islam. Instead you would have wars between the pagan Romans and the followers of the Avesta.

Western Europe remains a quiet backwater in this example. No Justinian removes much of the Roman Empire from the west, and no conquest of Andalusia means that the individual Visigothic and Gothic kingdoms would form and remain strong for a very long time.

What about religious wars between pagan sects?

I see long wars between the new 'Byzantium' and that of Persia, with Persia gaining most of the near east. Unless the Christians gain control of Egypt. No Islam.

(I think wars like the 30 Years War would not have happened, but perhaps even bloodier wars would have -- tribal societies can raise huge armies unlike those common in Middle Ages or Early Modern Europe).

Dark ages would have been far longer, depending on what happens in Alexandria. If the Christians gain control in Egypt and Africa, due to defeats of the Romans against Persia, the it is very likely that the knowledge would be preserved, and the dark ages would be less. I don't see a significant loss of Christian presence in Europe, just that the Roman Empire would fall sooner.

Would capitalism have started earlier or later? (I'm guessing no prohibitions on usury in pagan belief systems, but what about the lack of protestant work ethic?)

It would be a very different Christianity that would spread, say from the Alexandrine school, then say from Rome or Constantinople. It is likely the language would remain Greek and that the Vulgate would never be published. You wouldn't have many of the church councils in the East, and Christianity would be much less centralised in all of the West. So there would really be no need for a 'reformation'.

I would see Greek culture be much more widespread in this example, and I can see Greek missionaries throughout the West. I see more the model of smaller states aka as in Greece rather then the more centralised Rome.

[BeBMan]

There would be no "Life of Brian"

Conclusion: we're better off the way it is now

[SanFran1990]

I think...........

In my honest and humble opinion:

No Christianity at all? Don't know.

Christianity without King James and the guy who created Hell, much better.

[Zanarkand]

Europe without christianity wouldn't really work out so well. The church is an important part of the structure of the european countries. And having Europe full of athiests would be uncool.

[Nikolai]

Now, now Z. While I agree with the conclusion of Europe being better off with Christianity than without(a whole lot better in fact), I believe your argumental part could be improved.

[Heraclitus]

@Z: only in America


Absence of Christianity =/= atheism

[Nikolai]

Z is not an American. I think he's just trying to provoke you.

[Zanarkand]

The way Europe is today has alot to do with christianity. Europe without christianity would be a place filled with intolerant people.

[Nikolai]

It is filled with intolerant people. Most of them are in fact atheists. Europe today is a continent where the absolutes is the only thing not tolerated.

[Proteus_MST]

Well, Christianity itself had to do a lot with intolerant people.

After all christianity in the beginning consisted of many small groups with different beliefs. However after one of these groups, pauline christianity, became roman state religion in the 4th century, it began to actively persecute all other christian faiths, which didn´t adhere to pauline beliefs. This lead to all other christianities becoming more or less extinct till the 6th century, with almost al scriptures lost because pauline christians already at this time were great in burning books.

To state an example:
Gnosticism for example, which began in the first century BCE, became a christianity and in the first 2 centuries AD was rather widespread or even dominant in the palestinian territories, became one of the main targets of pauline heresy hunters and before 1947, when the Nag Hammadi library was discovered, we knew almost nothing about the gnostics and their scriptures (and what few knowledge we had, came from its enemies, the catholic heresy hunters.
Same goes for so many other christian groups that differed from pauline christian views and therefore were erradicated (for example because they had a different view about Trinity or virgin birth).

So, if pauline christianity hadn´t become state religion in the 4th century but christianity had remained just a small sect in jewish terrotiry, I would even doubt that it would have become the faith it is now. It might well be possible that in this case one of the other christian groups had become dominant (for example gnostic or jewish christianity) and christianity would be a faith alongside these principles (maybe even remaining a jewish sect without desire to convert as many gentiles as possible). (History is written by the victor and I don´t think we can sure that pauline christianity really is more according to the teaching of the historical Jesus (if he existed) than other groups in early christianity; if there existed scriptures that provided insight into a historical Jesus that was different from pauline beliefs, they probably didn´t survive pauline persecution)

Europe without christianity however... I assume that our technological standard would be higher than it is now, as there hadn´t been clerical control over the science. I assume as well that our knowledge about ancient cultures and pagan religions would be greater than it is now, as the romans beforee christianity normally showed much more tolerance towards pagan beliefs than it did, when christianity gained influence, which lets us assume that without christian influence there would have been much less books burning, persecution of pagans and willing destruction of pagan temples.

I am not sure whether Islam without christianity would have developed at all, after all, islam has Jesus as a prophet as well, meaning that it is well possible that the knowledge Muhammed gained about christianity influenced him into starting his own religion (and that, without this influence maybe he would have remained a local ruler).

The political structure of europe however...
I assume the western roman empire would have fallen, but the eastern roman empire (Basileia ton romaion = Byzanz) would have developed totally different (I assume orthodox faith had a unifying influence there, which would wouldn´t have been there if christianity had remained a tiny sect, but on the other hand, as written above, maybe the byzantines also wouldn´t have to fight islam as perhaps it hadn´t been founded and which, together with the conquest of the byzantine capital by crusaders, dealt the death blow to this empire) so it is unclear what development would have been taken place. But it is well possible that in this hypothetical case the Baslieia ton romaion with its culture (and as last surviving remnant of rome) would have gained superiority in europe, influencing culture and science in europe to a great extent.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Europe without Christianity... weirder. Better or worse? Not sure I can give you an answer to that as the world would be far different. The whole concept of a nation state may not have come into existance, or at least not the same way. Canon law, for one, helped create the legal systems that were used by the secular authorities.

[Zanarkand]

Proteus, I would be thrilled if you'd write where you've gotten this information from, cause most of it is pretty new to me. Yes, gnosticism entered the world not long after the cruzifiction of Christ, but if wasn't, nor has it ever been dominant in any of the palestinian territories. Christians never persecuted anyone during that time, pretty much because they were being persecuted themselves when Nero blamed christians for the great fire in Rome in 64.a.c. Let's not forget that christianity was also illegal at this time. Gnosticism wasn't even worth mentioning at this time.

[Maniac]

Gnostics suck even more than Paulines.

[Zanarkand]

Actually, Paulines doesn't suck at all. They follow the Bible as they're supposed to do.