Europe Without Christianity: Better or Worse?

[VetLegion]

Here I am not concerned with constructing a detailed what-if scenario with a point of departure and plausable causalities leading from it to the present time.

What I am interested in are your opinions on how European history would have looked had Christianity remained a sect confined to the Middle East.

Would Roman Empire have fallen the same? (I think yes.)

Would there have been a longer "dark age" in Europe, or were pagan Europeans ripe to be civilized come Church or not? (I think that the dark ages would have been longer.)

Wars? Obviously no Crusades (except perhaps the other way around.) What about religious wars between pagan sects? Plausible? Or does a tolerant "secular" system emerge early? (I think wars like the 30 Years War would not have happened, but perhaps even bloodier wars would have -- tribal societies can raise huge armies unlike those common in Middle Ages or Early Modern Europe).

Would capitalism have started earlier or later? (I'm guessing no prohibitions on usury in pagan belief systems, but what about the lack of protestant work ethic?)

What about institutions: would there have been more egalitarian societies along the lines of Iceland or would have pagan Kings have copied Romans and the East anyway? (I think Christianity has a pacifying effect on societies, this enabling unjust regimes to last longer.)

Culture? How would architecture have proceeded without churches setting examples of what is possible? How would music have developed without church singing?

Would nation states have emerged similar to today's? (I think yes, between language barriers.)

What would have been the framework, the common ground for peace and associations between countries?

Feel free to answer any of those questions, or add your own thoughts about the topic.

[Wernazuma III]

Well, on a few of your questions:

1) Would Roman Empire have fallen the same?
More or less, yes. Empires do fall. The reason Rome fell was not Christian pacifism.

2) Would there have been a longer "dark age" in Europe, or were pagan Europeans ripe to be civilized come Church or not?

No longer dark age, if Rome had remained religiously plural. After all, the "barbaric" invaders were less barbaric than portrayed by Roman (Church-) chronists. Germanic rulers always tried to preserve Roman structures (administration etc.) where possible - because they were pragmatic. Good part of late ancient book loss was due to Christian zealotry, so - while certainly being also a conserving factor - Christianity itself is one among many reasons for the dark ages.


Wars? Obviously no Crusades (except perhaps the other way around.) What about religious wars between pagan sects? Plausible? Or does a tolerant "secular" system emerge early?

Impossible to predict how the competing religions of late antiquity would have fared were there no Christianity. Had the Gnosis or Manichaeism prevailed, they wouldn't have been any better. The general tendency in the Roman Empire was towards a religious monopoly which would always have similar effects as to religious tolerance: zero. If there had been no "winner" and paganism prevailed, I do think there would have been more religious tolerance as to what one believes, but not as to how one behaves. Also, there is no special pagan driving force towards secularity.

3) Would capitalism have started earlier or later?
Protestant work ethic is an absolutely overrated myth. The basis for capitalism can be found in Roman Catholic medieval Italy and the international fairs like Lyon. The protestants-to-be Dutch already had the same mentality when they were still Catholics. But back from the sidetrack, I think the question of capitalism is mostly unrelated to Christianity.

[VetLegion]

Good point about the Dutch. It makes sense that they weren't shaped by religion but instead sought to adopt a religion which would fit their values better.

[Lord Avalon]

If there aren't Christians, whom would the Romans have thrown to the Lions?

No Catholic Church to pillage ancient buildings of their marble, precious metals, etc.

Is there stilll Islam? Without Christianity as an opposing force, perhaps Muslims would take over the Mediterranean. (Not sure how'd they feel about pushing into colder countries.)

(Hmmm, maybe Muslim invaders would pillage the ancient buildings instead. )

[Heraclitus]

Depends, another religion similar to Chrisitianity might emerge (there where a lot of those in 2nd century AD).
Several nations might have ended up Jewish.

Dark Age longer or shorter?
Hard to say. I would wager a bit longer (but not by much), a lot of people underestimate the importance of monasteries.


Now the real question is whether Islam arises or should I say whether it is the same Islam we see in our universe? If it is I could see most of Europe converting to it unless we see another strong religion. Paganism seems to fair poorly against such religions. Perhaps Russia, Scandinavia and the British Isles might be exceptions to this.

Once possiblitly for how the pagans of Europe might resist Islam is for them to develop a religon similar to Hindusim just with Slavic, Greco-Romanic or Germanic dieties.

The livley world of ancient philosophy might allow Neoplatonism or something of the sort, to evolve into a western style Religion-Philosophy like Confucianism or Taoism.

Also if Russia does not convert to Islam and assuming no native more advanced religions, and that it does not convert to Judaism the Mongols might have brought Buddhism or some other eastern religion there.

[Will9]

The lack of Crusades would be another negative since the Crusades helped reconnect Europe with the Byzantines which spread much of the lost Roman knowledge back to Europe. Also, if there were no Crusades, the effort would have been spent fighting eachother.

[Heraclitus]

We are forgeting somthing else.


Byzantines would not be christian as well, what would happen to them? Jewish? Eastern religion? Islam? Pagan?

[Will9]

Most likely Roman/Greek Pagan

[Heraclitus]

What about the large Jewish popluation in Palesitne? Rember they represented a 1/10 of the population of the Roman Empire.

[LordShiva]

Mithraism or whatever

[DaShi]

Worse, without Christianity Satan's armies would march all over the Earth.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by LordShiva
Mithraism or whatever

Actually that came to mind among other things.

[Will9]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
What about the large Jewish popluation in Palesitne? Rember they represented a 1/10 of the population of the Roman Empire.

The Jewish Population in Palestine was ~700,000 in Roman times. That is just over 1 % of the Roman population.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Will


The Jewish Population in Palestine was ~700,000 in Roman times. That is just over 1 % of the Roman population.

What about the diaspora?

[Will9]

Originally posted by Heraclitus


What about the diaspora?

Then it is 6-7%