Stabbing for GTA4

[Ninot]

Citing the Nanny-brigade doesn't really raise any points of interest. Offensive things can be cultural gems.

However, I respect your opinion that it is cultural garbage. I chose to disagree however. I think It can be just as much a gem as the Godfather I and II

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Ninot
Citing the Nanny-brigade doesn't really raise any points of interest. Offensive things can be cultural gems.

Yes, and I can in part agree with you. I'm a libertarian and respect highly the right of individuals to decide for themselves. That was why I am not in favour of banning GTA no matter what my personal thoughts about the game are.

The problem I have is that as pointed out in the article I posted - The game is intended for adults but you and I and everyone knows that every teenager out there will get their hands on it. I would have.

I'm not a huge fan of the "games cause violence" argument either. I grew up a fan of D&D and heard many similar things then. The problem is actually the small minority of kids that it will affect in a negative way (just like Volvo ads won't make everyone run out and buy a Volvo, it will attract a certain % of people. They wouldn't pay to advertise if it didn't) I'm worried about the kids that will react badly (and they will exist) to the anti-social messages in the game.

I see no redeeming value to GTA (crack can keep you equally occupied) and see only a negative on the overall society. Hence my comment.

However, I respect your opinion that it is cultural garbage. I chose to disagree however. I think It can be just as much a gem as the Godfather I and II

It will always be a matter of opinion I think. Thanks for recognising that basic fact overlooked by others.

edit - Btw, I like (and own) the Godfather trilogy. I think I and II were great. Sofia Copola was only one of many things wrong with III...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Wezil
I expect people that deal with cultural issues to be the people to comment on it (I won't play your "decide" game). I'd look to the social scientists. What sort of background do game reviewers generally have?

And people who cry whenever there is a boob on TV are now to be listened to whenever there is a question about what is culture or not?

What sort of background do movie reviewers generally have? Who denies that a Roger Ebert has a huge influence in the designation of a film as something of cultural value?

If it is society writ large then why do you insist on relying on the opinion of the narrow slice called game reviewers?

Because society has given the task of deciding what is cultural worth to certain segments of society. For movies it is the movie critics and reviewers. For games, if you think they are an art form, it is to the game critic (who else would it be?)

Ah. Realising you may have a problem when the real experts in the field are consulted you retreat. Now it is clear why you put forth your straw man.

WHAT ****ING "REAL" EXPERTS?! Tipper Gore and the "Nanny Brigade"? I thought they were laughed at and any attempts by them to define what is culturally significant was met with rolled eyes!

This discussion is useless so long as you continue to avoid my actual comment and continue to attack me on your straw man. Address my point please.

I have addressed it, and you've decided that social commentators like Tipper Gore and Focus on the Family get to decide what is culture and what is cultural excrement.

They also have decided works like "The Godfather" are cultural excrement. The rest of the society considers them to be full of ****. It obviously has cultural worth and that's why its always close to the top in all of the lists.

Can I cite a philosophy professors instead?

[q=Agathon]GTA is a satire on modern society and not a bad one in an age in which satire is difficult.

Being a ho stabbin robber lowlife is a welcome relief from being another good ol' clean shaven US special forces trooper defending fascism.[/q]

That also answers your:

I see no redeeming value to GTA

It will always be a matter of opinion I think.

Which is, of course, completely false. Certain works in other mediums are obviously, obviously considered to be culturally significant (Citizen Kane, the Godfather) and those who call it cultural excrement and laughed at for being idiots.

[Wezil]

**** Tipper Gore and **** your straw man argument. I couldn't get more than halfway through that drivel. If you refuse to address the point then we're done.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Wezil
**** Tipper Gore and **** your straw man argument. I couldn't get more than halfway through that drivel. If you refuse to address the point then we're done.

The problem is you are completely changing your argument. You can't have social commentators decide what is cultural excrement. All they decide is their own ****ing morality, not the value of a work (as pointed out by Ninot, a work can be a cultural gem and offend everyone... and it'd be really insane to call a work a cultural gem and a cultural excrement at the same time because critics claim it has value and the social nanny brigade claims it is crap).

The only reason you think its a "straw man" is because you aren't even sure what your argument is anymore.

[Asher]

The Globe & Mail is running a diary as the author plays through the game. It may change your opinion somewhat, Wezil.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080429.WBwgtgameblog030120080429204649/WBStory/WBwgtgameblog0301

GTA IV Diary, Day One: Off the boat



Niko Bellic, flawed antihero of Rockstar's controversial new game, Grand Theft Auto IV, isn't really a bad guy. Much like The Godfather's Michael Corleone, another pop culture criminal we can't help but love, he's a decent fellow driven to evil acts in order to protect his family.

I'm 150 minutes into this epic game (I'd be further, but my time with this decidedly mature interactive entertainment is constrained to the hours during which my three-year-old daughter sleeps), and already it is apparent that Niko is one of the most interesting and conflicted characters the game industry has ever spawned.

Fresh off the boat from Eastern Europe, Niko is looking to start anew in America and forget his upsetting past, which so far has only been hinted at with comments like: “Just don't tell me you've stolen this stuff from a hospital for sick kids—my conscience is troubled enough already.”

Alas, it doesn't look like he's going to find much peace in Liberty City.

He's already been forced to kill to protect his cousin, who lied to him about the ease with which success comes to American immigrants, and he's slowly but surely being drawn into higher profile crimes in order to protect the people he cares about and make good in the big city. And while I've seen little about Niko that suggests he has the stuff of an all-powerful lord of the criminal underworld, I think we all know that's where he's headed.

But at least he's managing to find time for a bit of awkward love.

I've steered Niko into a couple of nights out with a shy but good natured girl named Michelle. She kicked Niko's (my?) butt at bowling on their first date, then on the second rewarded his decision to call a cab rather than drive home drunk by inviting him into her aparment.

Nothing happened—Michelle's too smart a girl to jump into the sack with a character like Niko after just a couple of dates. However, the heartfelt chat they shared that night did earn me an Xbox Achievement, which was cleverly named “Warm Coffee” in reference to the fact that this romantic encounter was decidedly less lewd than the controversial X-rated “Hot Coffee” mod associated with Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.

And what of the depraved, character-destroying activities that the game's critics have warned us about? I haven't witnessed anything much worse than the beating up and stabbing of bad guys. That said, I suspect that there's plenty of contentious content to be found in GTA IV's free-to-explore and stunningly lifelike world by players who go in search of it.

Indeed, I will probe the depths of the game's debauchery in a future instalment of this GTA IV diary.

However, now that my baby girl is back safely asleep in her bed, it's time for her papa to head back out onto the mean streets of Liberty City.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080430.WBwgtgameblog030120080430142200/WBStory/WBwgtgameblog0301/

GTA IV Diary, Day Two: Sightseeing



Last night I spent several moments standing beside the Broker Bridge, gazing longingly across the Humboldt River at the captivating skyline of Algonquin Island, where I could see the peak of the Rotterdam Tower. Just beyond lay Happiness Island, and the smiling Statue of Happiness. (It's no secret that Grand Theft Auto IV's Liberty City is based on New York, but the extent to which it mimics the Big Apple is really quite marvellous.)

I would have liked to have ventured across the bridge, but for some reason the police were barring access to Manhattan—err, I mean Algonquin—Island. Developer Rockstar Games obviously doesn't want us seeing too much too quickly.

So I contented myself with exploring Brooklyn...umm, I mean Broker. I caught rides on several of the borough's elevated trains (a quick way to get around), took a joyride in an SUV through Francis International Airport (I don't recommend it—as soon as I hit the tarmac and started towards a taxiing plane, the authorities apparently assumed I was a terrorist and sent a platoon of police helicopters and hummers after me), and paid cabbies to ferry me around, which provided an opportunity to behave like a tourist and take in the local flavour.

There are 18 neighbourhoods on Broker Island alone (just a fraction of the more than 70 found in Liberty City proper), and each one has its own wonderfully authentic big city ambience.

It's easy to overlook the minutiae of ritzy townhouse communities and dilapidated ghettos as you zoom through them at 150 kilometres per hour, but once I was a passenger in leisurely moving cabs, and, later, strolling around on foot, I was astounded by the realism of each neighbourhood. Each building has its own character, each lot its own foliage, each sidewalk its own scuffs. Slowly rusting signs and weathered billboards are everywhere. Pages from old newspapers fly up in the breeze.

It would be fascinating to learn the total number of work hours involved in the monumental effort that must have been mounted to construct GTA IV's massive—and massively detailed—virtual world.

Of course, a city is nothing without the people who inhabit it, and Liberty City is teeming with interesting citizens. At one point, I simply stopped walking and stood on a corner to observe.

Dozens of people ambled by, occasionally stopping to make an offhand comment about the weather or the way I looked, sometimes in a foreign language. And everyone seemed to be more or less following the rules of modern civilization, obeying traffic laws, watching where they were walking, and generally getting along.

Then a hoodlum darted past, pursued for some unknown crime by a police officer who was radioing for backup as he ran.

I was just thinking about how nice it was to have the cops chasing someone else for a change when a stranger in an argyle sweater came up and pushed me for no reason. I pushed him back. Before I knew it, I was in another fight and the police were alerted yet again to be on the lookout for a gaunt, balding Eastern European.

I smashed in the window of a nearby sports car, hotwired it, and took off.

When I arrived home, I intended to send Niko to bed, an action that saves game progress and provides a rare opportunity to quit playing.

Then I made the mistake of switching on the television. I immediately became engrossed in a male self-help show called The Men's Room, in which a burly guy was explaining that violence was the best way to solve problems while his meek co-host talked about how aromatherapy usually does the trick for him.

I switched the channel to a stand up comedy show featuring Ricky Gervais doing a routine about the best all-time war endings (his top pick was the atomic bomb that concluded the World War II). Then I moved on to a cartoon in which redneck marines were blasting a rather congenial, tentacled alien for “Not speakin' American.”

I finally landed on an interesting documentary explaining the origin and history of the great Liberty City. However, much like real-life TV docs, it eventually caused me to fall asleep on the couch.

My second day in Liberty City had drawn to a close.

[Aeson]

GTA is cultural excrement though. (And yes, I'm penultimate authority on that subject, so screw.) That's the draw, isn't it? Everything of shady character or taste all rolled into one prostitute murdering, cop shooting, drug laden, wannabegangsterfest. If you're a true GTA fan you should be proud if someone calls it cultural excrement!

But mostly I just wanted to say at the esteem shown for gaming critics in this thread. I give Wezil's posts 5 stars. I'm an official forum post critic. Bow down before my awesome sense of online conduct! Which is only mostly dictated by who paid me to say what...

[Wezil]

Imran -

Yes, as Ninot pointed out and I've stated from the beginning, it is a matter of opinion whether something is "good" or not. Hence my objection to your use of "decide" earlier. No one can ultimately decide on that.

I'm sure Tipper Gore is against GTA. She probably hasn't seen herself naked for 40 years prude that she is. But Tipper (if our presumption is right) isn't the only person that see harm in this sort of item in kid's hands. Not only crazy fundies can see a harm in this thing. Issues like this seriously challenge my libertarianism b/c it is a classic case of children needing parents to guide and educate them (particularly the vulnerable children), yet this is an expectation that is exceedingly optimistic when you consider today's parents. In the climate we are in I just can't see this game as being beneficial in any way going forward.

I think US (and by extension Cdn) culture is terribly ill. We celebrate false heroes (sports idols being a goood example) justify bad parenting (let the TV or video game babysit the kids) and are awash in a culture of violence. It is naive to think this isn't having an effect on our children.

[Asher]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/04/30/grand.theft.auto/index.html

...

Ebullient reviews touted the game as "The Godfather" of video games because of its cult-like following.

Andrew Reiner, who reviewed "GTA IV" for Game Informer, a well-known destination for all things gaming, scored it as a 10.0/10.0 under the title of "Perfection."

"I now know how film critics felt after screening 'The Godfather,' " his review began.

"GTA IV" is a "landscape-changing event that doesn't come around very often," Reiner said.

It seems the feelings have translated to the regular consumer too. Gamers from Norway to Britain to America echoed similar sentiments on gaming message boards.

D.J. Brotherson from Winnipeg, Canada, said he enjoyed the game so much, he wanted to skip work and keep playing all night, saying it was unlike any game he had ever played.
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"The story line is very well-written," he said, adding that the game "plays like an interactive Martin Scorsese movie."

"Today, I was as excited as I was when I was 5 years old and I just got my first Nintendo Entertainment System on Christmas Day.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Aeson
GTA is cultural excrement though. (And yes, I'm penultimate authority on that subject, so screw.) That's the draw, isn't it? Everything of shady character or taste all rolled into one prostitute murdering, cop shooting, drug laden, wannabegangsterfest. If you're a true GTA fan you should be proud if someone calls it cultural excrement!

There is a Canadian TV show called Trailer Park Boys that is absolutely awful and fabulous all in one show. I am sure it is considered cultural excrement by many people but I find it hilarious. Ben K has one of the cast members in his avatar....


Asher - Sorry, I missed your earlier posts of the Globe articles. I have heard GTA is actually quite revolutionary in the concept of game design and I don't dispute this. Id be interested in seeing further in the series if you are planning on following it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yes, as Ninot pointed out and I've stated from the beginning, it is a matter of opinion whether something is "good" or not.

On the other hand, there are certain works of art which are culturally significant and while you personally may not like, you cannot deny its place as a cultural work. Such, as "The Godfather". You may not like it, but when it is ranked so highly in so many lists, by so many different experts, to deny its cultural significance and place is being dumb.

I think US (and by extension Cdn) culture is terribly ill. We celebrate false heroes (sports idols being a goood example) justify bad parenting (let the TV or video game babysit the kids) and are awash in a culture of violence. It is naive to think this isn't having an effect on our children.

I imagine similar has been said in all periods in history in all cultures around the globe. Our culture of violence is nothing compared to human history and false heroes have been around since time immemorial (Roman gladiators anyone?). Bad parenting is always asserted by every generation.

It all rings a bit hollow to me.

[Wezil]

Strange you should mention Roman gladiators. Some argue the cultural decadence of Rome led to/mirrored the decline of the empire.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Why not use one bull**** reason to try to justify another .

Especially since the Romans always considered Greek culture to be very decadent, while stealing it wholesale because it was a multitude of times better than what they had (the staid, boring Romans produce culture by themselves, sans help? Ha!).

[Wezil]

We should probably take this into the History Subforum but I suspect people might be sleeping in there....

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Wezil

Yes, as Ninot pointed out and I've stated from the beginning, it is a matter of opinion whether something is "good" or not.

Oh really? How then do you explain when people realize they are wrong about such matters? Are the tone deaf "correct" about the quality of a piece of music that they cannot hear?

Like ethical statements, statements about aesthetic value simply don't obey the same rules as statements of opinions. Trying to force them to do so is an exercise in Procrustean futility. It's the usual excuse of simpletons. I hope you don't really believe this.

Genuine aesthetic judgements tend to require quite a bit of assumed knowledge.