I'm Islamophobic

[TCO]

What I don't like is the mushy Islamic centrists who don't have the balls to walk into the community and say Al Queda sucks. Let's cut Bin Ladin's head off.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Not on European scales. Also, eeehh do I have to say this?... USAians are not as full of political correctness as we are and are for the most part less tolerant. You also have a much larger Christian poplulation meaning that zealots of one group are always in the minority held in check by the Christian fundamentalists.


Europe currently has no counterweight, and atheism has proven ineffectual at resisting conversion (as can be discerned from numerus cases of people who were not very religius converting to Islam).

What I was getting at, is that it isn't strong Christian traditions in the US that prevent Islamic extremism from gaining ground, it is the institutions that have been put into place in the US political culture. Even pockets of Muslims in the US are not really radicalized. They feel more a part of the society. The US model embraces people having their own religious beliefs, but under the overarching secular model. It seems that in a lot of European countries, they don't make the effort to assimilate or accept those of the Muslim religion and that's when conflicts arise.

So, I'd say LS is right. The US is more tolerant and that is why you won't find the radicalized Muslim population in the US that you would elsewhere.

[Dinner]

Britain is very much like the US culturally yet even there 30% of the Muslim population believes people should be murdered if they convert or become an atheist. That's a fairly large percentage.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The US has a different political and religious tradition. After all, you do still have a Church of England.

Of course, the question is how many deaths have occured in Britain as a result of a conversion?

[Arrian]

Re: Re: I'm Islamophobic

Originally posted by Oncle Boris

You mean like the Patriot Act and the French headscarf ban ?

Well played, sir.

-Arrian

[BeBMan]

There are a couple of factors playing a role, not just general tolerance or political culture. European colonial history, US being less homogenous from the beginning, chances for better economical/social status etc. etc.

Also I have the impression that most who go to the US do have the goal in mind to become Americans, while a part of the immigrants in Europe does want to have the economic benefits of living there but despises Europe's "western" background as decadent etc, blahblah and rather stays in closed communities to not let teh evil western influence in. Granted, that may be in part the fault of the Euro side, but not exclusively.

[Colon™]

It's striking that the US hardly has any religious Federal holidays (only Christmas). Contrast this with my own country, which probably is a good example of a country that isn't very religious, where the majority is celebrating Christian subjects. Muslims (and atheist) "celebrate" the Ascension of Jesus just like anyone else. Agreed, getting days off for events you don't care about hardly is going to cause a rift, but it illustrates the institutional deficiency in making Muslims feel at home.

[BeBMan]

BTW, when did the "Euro country X will have a mooslim majority in xx years" stuff first occur? It's certainly not that new, and I think we should bookmark the thread and come back when the xx years are over to assess the situation.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
So, I'd say LS is right. The US is more tolerant and that is why you won't find the radicalized Muslim population in the US that you would elsewhere.

You're probably right that the US is more tolerant wrt to religion in general, as opposed to French or Turkish style secularism, but it would be more appropriate to compare the situation of the Muslims in France to that of Black Americans IMO.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Colon™
It's striking that the US hardly has any religious Federal holidays (only Christmas). Contrast this with my own country, which probably is a good example of a country that isn't very religious, where the majority is celebrating Christian subjects. Muslims (and atheist) "celebrate" the Ascension of Jesus just like anyone else. Agreed, getting days off for events you don't care about hardly is going to cause a rift, but it illustrates the institutional deficiency in making Muslims feel at home.

Yeah, that's kind of what I mean. The US doesn't even have a federal holiday off for Easter. Our holidays are based on civic holidays like the 4th of July, Labor Day, Memorial Day, etc. More inclusive set of holidays.

And yes, that could be because of the lack of religious homogenity in the beginning (New England Puritans and Virginia Anglicans, as well as Maryland Catholics and Pennsylvania Quakers, etc).

[Colon™]

Originally posted by BeBro
BTW, when did the "Euro country X will have a mooslim majority in xx years" stuff first occur? It's certainly not that new, and I think we should bookmark the thread and come back when the xx years are over to assess the situation.

I think this is a good candidate: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...5&pagenumber=1

[Colon™]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Yeah, that's kind of what I mean. The US doesn't even have a federal holiday off for Easter. Our holidays are based on civic holidays like the 4th of July, Labor Day, Memorial Day, etc. More inclusive set of holidays.

And yes, that could be because of the lack of religious homogenity in the beginning (New England Puritans and Virginia Anglicans, as well as Maryland Catholics and Pennsylvania Quakers, etc).

Something else to consider, and this is a bit of a unsubstantiated, goofy pet theory of mine, is alcohol. A lot of social interaction revolves around bars and booze is the ultimate social lubricant. A lot networks are created at booze-fuelled events. Happy events and victories are celebrated with Champagne. Many European countries have booze as national drinks. Belgium is beer, France is wine, Russia is Vodka.
If a group moves in and find itself fundamentally at odds with alcohol, it's going to have a hard time breaking into traditional networks and aligning itself with native customs.
And sure, the US isn't shy of alcohol either but it has always been more reserved to it. There's more room for groups and individuals that don't do alcohol.

[Imran Siddiqui]

this is a bit of a unsubstantiated, goofy pet theory of mine

Well that's not unusual for this group... or this topic .

And you may have a point there... plenty more teetotalers and people who don't drink that much in the States. There is more of an opinion that alcohol is bad over here than there is European countries... perhaps a reason being that since everything is so spread out, you'd have to DUI to get back home (I have a feeling alcohol was more accepted in the US in the 50s and 60s... with the three martini lunch and all that... though there has always, always been a temperence streak in some areas in the US).

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
but it would be more appropriate to compare the situation of the Muslims in France to that of Black Americans IMO.

If the basis of your comparison is the 1950's and 60's, you probably would be correct.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Yeah, that's kind of what I mean. The US doesn't even have a federal holiday off for Easter. Our holidays are based on civic holidays like the 4th of July, Labor Day, Memorial Day, etc. More inclusive set of holidays.

And yes, that could be because of the lack of religious homogenity in the beginning (New England Puritans and Virginia Anglicans, as well as Maryland Catholics and Pennsylvania Quakers, etc).

Well, wouldn't you say that all sundays are de facto holidays? Easter being a Sunday, would be redundant-no non critical government worker that I know of is required to work that day.