In Soviet Russia, friends leave you

[onodera]

Originally posted by snoopy369


Somehow I think you fail to understand the word "oppress"...

It must be some sort of a mental block in my brain. I cannot acknowledge the fact that anyone would want to oppress my own homeland, the only one in the world, as if it was some evil empire.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by onodera
But don't you think that allying with Russia would be the best way to avoid a conflict with it?

I don't think an alliance with Russia would be meaningful right now. We have too many divergent interests.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by snoopy369
That's because we kept the Canadians in nice, safe places during the world wars ...

Also, Canada never defeated the US (as an independent country). 1812 was the British, not the Canadians (and not a victory for them anyhow, simply a draw). Hardly an even match

Except for out in the middle of the Atlantic... or at Dieppe, or the Somme, or Paschendaele, or... but then again you know this so...

As for 1812, pish tosh. We kicked your asses and burned your capitol. So there!

[David Floyd]

Because it is not now, and never has been, a defensive alliance. It is an imperialist alliance.

Ummm, sorry, but no. NATO was formed as a response to the aggressive Soviet moves in Eastern Europe and the Balkans following WW2. NATO was at no point aggressively expansionist. While you may argue that the US subverted elections that could have led to communism spreading in parts of Europe following WW2 (rightfully suppressed, I might add, as think history shows us), you cannot make the argument that NATO was ever anything other than defensive. The Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact always had more powerful offensive conventional forces, whereas NATO's offensive options against the Soviets were limited to air and naval power and nuclear weapons.

The creation of NATO was also easily justified, by Soviet actions such as the general raping and pillaging of Eastern Europe following WW2, the suppression of the legitimate government of Poland, the Berlin Blockade, the violent crackdowns in Hungary, Poland, and the Czech Republic over the next couple of decades, not to mention their initial refusal to withdraw from northern Iran and their attempts to turn Greece and Italy into Soviet puppets.

Sorry chegitz, but that "the US, the West, and NATO are teh evil oppressors" dog just don't hunt.

[Lancer]

Self determination of nations. Russia can determine it's own and no others. The Euros don't have the guts to fight for self determination then they don't deserve their own nationhood. But...when in the last 60 years have they?

I'd love to see how each nation voted. I'd bet that ex Warsaw pact nations voted to let them in and gasoholic spoiled rotten western europe wimped out...excepting possibly the Brits.

Anyone know?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


I don't think an alliance with Russia would be meaningful right now. We have too many divergent interests.

Which interests in particular do we share with all the NATO countries but not with Russia?

Failing to replace NATO with an even broader alliance that included Russia was a huge mistake imho.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by notyoueither
As for 1812, pish tosh. We kicked your asses and burned your capitol. So there!

Which Canadian units made it to Washington?

[notyoueither]

The British ones since at the time we were British.

The Royal Navy was our navy and the British Army was our army. This remained the case until 1914.

[Kuciwalker]

Doesn't mean that any Canadians burned down DC.

It's kinda like saying the Californians won Gettysburg. Just... no.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by notyoueither
As for 1812, pish tosh. We kicked your asses and burned your capitol. So there!

...until the boys from Tennessee got involved. Ya'll c'mon down to Bourbon Street again now, hear?

[Wezil]

They wouldn't be one of the militias that got cold feet on the banks of the Niagara would they? Marched all the way to the river before they realised they were contitutionally prohibited from crossing (or so the excuse went...).

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Wezil
They wouldn't be one of the militias that got cold feet on the banks of the Niagara would they? Marched all the way to the river before they realised they were contitutionally prohibited from crossing (or so the excuse went...).

Nope...they sure wouldn't.

[Wezil]

It was from the battle of Queenston Heights (where Gen. Brock was killed). The US militias, having marched quite some distance to get there, decided after some of the US units were already across the river that they were not allowed to fight outside of US territory. IIRC they were Kentucky units...

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by onodera
They should've invited us into the alliance instead of the Ukraine and Georgia.

Yes they should have. Back in 1990's the USA should have given you a "Marshall plan" and let you into NATO, it would have been so much better for all paries involved.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Geronimo
Which interests in particular do we share with all the NATO countries but not with Russia?

For one, there's preventing the resurgence of Russian dominance in Eastern Europe