Barack Obama: Leader of next major religion?

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I don't see how he could given the strength of the teachers unions in the Democrat party.

That's Obama's point. He's against adopting views just because they're the views of "your side." He wants to adopt the views that make the most sense, no matter where they come from.

[Ben Kenobi]

Merit pay can't work. It's a stupid gimic idea. Some teachers get the better students. They shouldn't be paid for that. In fact, you should be paid more for teaching the stupid ones.

On a consistant basis it should work out even. If one teacher is consistantly doing better then others, then yes that's a sign that you've got a good teacher.

I would support merit pay only if the teachers who don't make the grade can get fired. That way there is serious incentive to improve. That is the way it works in private businesses, and it should apply to teachers too.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Merit pay can't work. It's a stupid gimic idea. Some teachers get the better students. They shouldn't be paid for that. In fact, you should be paid more for teaching the stupid ones.

When bad teachers get good students the good students suffer.

I have seen it.

I have experienced it.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

That's Obama's point. He's against adopting views just because they're the views of "your side." He wants to adopt the views that make the most sense, no matter where they come from.

I think it's a good idea, but you have to be able to fire them. Otherwise there isn't really incentive to improve. There would be competition, but if a teacher is happy with their base pay, then it will stay that way.

If a teacher consistantly falls in the bottom and realises they may lose their job, then that's the problem.

The other question is the metric used to assess teachers. Is he proposing standardised testing?

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


On a consistant basis it should work out even. If one teacher is consistantly doing better then others, then yes that's a sign that you've got a good teacher.

I would support merit pay only if the teachers who don't make the grade can get fired. That way there is serious incentive to improve. That is the way it works in private businesses, and it should apply to teachers too.

As long as teachers get the pay they do and have to put up with the **** they do, teachers won't be the best and brightest.

Firing teachers, when we already have a shortage, isn't a good idea.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
On a consistant basis it should work out even.

No it wouldn't. Some schools have students who test better, and it has nothing to do with the teachers. It's been that way for decades and it's going to stay that way. You don't want to give teachers incentive to teach at those schools. You want to give them incentive to teach at the schools with the low test scores, because that's where they are needed most.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The other question is the metric used to assess teachers. Is he proposing standardised testing?

I don't have the book with me, and it's been awhile since I read it, but IIRC, he was talking about merit bonuses handed out at the discretion of the principal.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


When bad teachers get good students the good students suffer.

I have seen it.

I have experienced it.

JM

It depends on what you mean by bad teachers. Most teachers aren't bad, but they aren't that great either. Good teachers are few and far between.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


I don't have the book with me, and it's been awhile since I read it, but IIRC, he was talking about merit bonuses handed out at the discretion of the principal.

So subjective then? Do you know that some principals don't have much experience and aren't really qualified to make judgement like that? It would be better if the teacher's themselves decided who the better teachers were.

[Jon Miller]

My highschool calc teacher spent most of her time in the back playing computer solitaire.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
My highschool calc teacher spent most of her time in the back playing computer solitaire.

JM

Maybe he was efficient. I don't know, but sometimes efficient teachers have extra time.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
My highschool calc teacher spent most of her time in the back playing computer solitaire.

JM

What was the class doing while she was playing?

[Ben Kenobi]

No it wouldn't. Some schools have students who test better, and it has nothing to do with the teachers.

I haven't been clear. I am talking about teachers at the same school. Yes, there will be students who test well, but over time, you can tell whether the students are performing better then the historical average for your school, or worse.

You would expect, given a completely random distribution, that bad teachers would get the good students, and good teachers would get the bad ones.

You want to give them incentive to teach at the schools with the low test scores, because that's where they are needed most.

True, but look at it this way. In business, do people have an incentive to work for failing companies? No. That is motivation for the school themselves to improve because otherwise they won't. I think vouchers are a great idea, because that way the children can go to schools that are better, and the demand will reflect the overall performance. Failing schools, would then see fewer and fewer students, while successful ones would grow larger.

The problem isn't that some schools are bad, and others are good, but that students are stuck going to the school that they are assigned to just because of where they live.

[Ben Kenobi]

As long as teachers get the pay they do and have to put up with the **** they do, teachers won't be the best and brightest.

Firing teachers, when we already have a shortage, isn't a good idea.

The problem, for many people is that effort has no reward. You can bust your ass off for the students and recieve the same pay as the teacher who really doesn't care.

You do that for 30 years, and at the end of it, you working hard, not because your employer recognises the work you do, but because you believe it's the right thing to do.

There isn't really a teacher shortage, at least not in Canada. Where I live, they actually closed down 10 schools in the last year or so, and how did they decide who kept their jobs and who did not?

Seniority.

The best way to kill new teachers, is to do this sort of thing.

[Jon Miller]

They close down schools because of lack of money, not lack of students.

At least int he US.

JM