How bad was colonialism really?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

i'd disagree... I think most prefer "old ways" ... but there are not many who experienced both for real, and if you call "shanty town" living "old way" that is certainly not it... the main benefit of modern society is medicine & sustainable food supplies, which can be had with old cultures in place... all the rest is junk, large parts of it destructive junk...

there are many communities in Africa which resisted "modern life" and they live as good as ever, the main threats to them are economic exploitation of the environments they are in where they have to cease with the old ways of life, and the warfare that rages across many "modern nation states" there...

so surely they would not be on "European level" but the transition to something modern would be at their own pace and in their own way, not imposed by some external factor... there would have been at least 3x as many nation states there if it went "the normal" way, cultures would not have been crushed, and the incessant civil strife etc...

what was done is done, but going forward free trade is the only way to help them out of the hole... perhaps outsourcing as well, in more stable nation states, which are very few unfortunately... other than North Africa, you can do business in South Africa and marginally Nigeria, Senegal and that is about it...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
what was done is done, but going forward free trade is the only way to help them out of the hole... perhaps outsourcing as well, in more stable nation states, which are very few unfortunately... other than North Africa, you can do business in South Africa and marginally Nigeria, Senegal and that is about it...

No. They need better family planning and population control and education. Also, they need better leadership. They need some control over their society.

Free trade doesn't really do what you think it does. Specific policies do.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Also, they need better leadership.

Which needs free trade.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by David Floyd
you can also say that Africa would be poorer by an order of magnitude.

You can also say that European colonization prevented any African "Japans" from appearing. You can say anything you want, since it's merely speculation. Nor was Europe's fragmentation the cause of it's sudden leap ahead. South Asia and South East Asia were similarly fragmented. Africa was certainly fragmented.

In any event, Ethiopia isn't any worse off than the rest of Africa, and it was never colonized. The infrastructure the European created doesn't even begin to make up for the immense human misery visited upon the continent. In fact, pretty much everywhere in the world where the Europeans colonized and didn't exterminate and replace the indigenous population is a basket case. In many cases, prior to colonization, they had been relatively wealthy and prosperous lands. Even with Europe, the effects of colonization can be long lived. Ireland is only just now recovering from English rule. For the first time in its history, people are immigrating to Ireland, the Irish abroad are moving back. That's because of EU subsidies.

Who is subsidizing Africa? Africa exports wealth. When Africa attempts to reorient its development for its own ends, to take control of its resources, it finds the CIA backing some colonel or another country intervening at the imperialist's request, or maybe imperialist troops themselves (remember Biafra). Even if the governments aren't directly involved, imperialist corporations can keep the situation insane. The executives at DeBeers ought to be tried as war criminals for what they helped create in Africa. Shell props up antidemocratic forces in Nigeria.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Which needs free trade.

Cuz free trade was how Europe and the Pacific tigers developed . . . oh wait!?!

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Cuz free trade was how Europe and the Pacific tigers developed . . . oh wait!?!

Cuz only suporters of free trade get to stay in power in third world countries.

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
You can also say that European colonization prevented any African "Japans" from appearing. You can say anything you want, since it's merely speculation.

i would say that what held africa back the most was the fact that no sub-saharan african society, except ethiopia, developed a written language. it's also the reason why we know comparatively little about african civilisations, since they left no records. without writing it's hard to see how a society could develop its culture, its ideas, its identity, in the way that allowed european and asian societies to advance.

if the europeans hadn't colonised africa, it would of been interesting to see how far the arab colonisation, active in east africa since the 9th century, would have gone. would arab sailors have ventured past sofala, or would africa have been opened up for the first time by tippu tip and his ilk.

[VetLegion]

[Barnabas]

How did japan progress so fast? They went from medieval to beating russia in an incredibly short time span

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Which needs free trade.

What would you need leaders for if free trade worked?

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
You can also say that European colonization prevented any African "Japans" from appearing.

It's not very likely.

In any event, Ethiopia isn't any worse off than the rest of Africa, and it was never colonized.

Good point.

For the first time in its history, people are immigrating to Ireland, the Irish abroad are moving back. That's because of EU subsidies.

LAWLZ. If Ireland is prospering because of EU subsidies, then why are Portugal, Greece and southern Italy not?

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by VetLegion

LAWLZ. If Ireland is prospering because of EU subsidies, then why are Portugal, Greece and southern Italy not?

Because those places are full of Portugese, Greeks and southern Italians.

[Dinner]

Racist little Chinese living in Canada.

[LordShiva]

Kontiki is Chinese?

[Kontiki]

I didn't think I was, but how can one question Oerdin's wisdom?