How bad was colonialism really?

[Krill]

[chequita guevara]

This is, without a doubt, among the most racist threads on this site since I've started posting here.

Colonialism was such a complete disaster that Africa has yet to recover. And Oerdin, in hi typical ignorance of anything outside the U.S., fails to understand that the post-colonial history of Africa has largely been shaped by the Great powers. Aside from the fact that Europe decided what the states would be, with no consideration for ethnicity or geography, selected leaders based on loyalty to the colonizer, kept the ownership of the major resources, and sent in the CIA or equivalent whenever an African leader though about, possibly, having African countries work for the Africans, only a great idiot would expect Africa to have immediately become a functional continent.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
free Quebec!

oops wrong thread

[Berzerker]

Weren't the Belgians in control of Rwanda? Didn't they ban guns, favor an ethnic minority (the native ruling class) to the point hatred boiled over into genocide when the Belgians left?

What is this need to measure life by technology? If people in the Congo dont want modern society, why impose it on them? When we find some tribe off in the Amazon or New Guinea, do we jump right in and start teaching them how to be "modern"? Just let em be...

[Ramo]

Not only is the DRC a bizarre example due to the extreme exploitation while Belgium directly controlled the place, Mobutu was an American client, and had our support when he pulled off his coup against a regime more hostile to Western interests. Part of the mess it's currently in is that Mobutu got these huge infrastructure loans from the West, which he used to enrich himself and build ridiculous projects. It's basically the worst possible example...

[Dry]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Weren't the Belgians in control of Rwanda? Didn't they ban guns, favor an ethnic minority (the native ruling class) to the point hatred boiled over into genocide when the Belgians left?

Rwanda was initially colonized by the germans.
When they get there, the region was already inhabited by 3 group of people that today historians classify more as social classes than ethnic groups. One person belonged to one or other group by the amount of sheep/cows he posessed.
Germans didn't change that social classification during their administration.
Belgium got Rwanda - and Burundi - from Germany after WW1.
As the germans, they used the classification to help them administrate the country, educating the Tutsis, but not the Hutus... But at some point - and that's the crime - they also transformed this social classification into an artificial ethnic classification.
So, there was indeed a ruling class, but that was not based on ethnicity.

What happened in Rwanda in 1990 is still unclear to me, but I know that there is (was) a strange game going on in former belgian colonies between 3 players: Belgium, France and USA. A game when sometimes we are allies, sometimes we are competitors.
Back then, Rwanda was slipping away from Belgian infkluence and France was interrested in gaining/replacing belgium influence over the country. But they (France) had another problem, namely that more and more people in Rwanda were looking in the direction of anglo-saxon world for godfathership. Rwanda was on the verge of changing from francophone influence to anglophone one. Some rwanda factions were already supported by english-speaking Uganda.
My personal opinion is that France tried some poker game, de-stabilisation operation that went really wrong. The behavior of France in the civil war is more than unclear. And the relations of the guy who called for slaughter (also of belgians) on 'radio milles collines' with french intelligence is quite disturbing.

Not to say that today, those who help most to rebuild the country are precisely the belgians... seconded by the USA.
But not a single frenchman in sight...

If what I suspect is true, then the french coup did fail in bringing Rwanda in Frances influence sphere, but succeeded in preventing it to fall in anglo-saxon influence sphere...

But that's only my own personnal view of the events...

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
only a great idiot would expect Africa to have immediately become a functional continent.

Nobody is asking for immediate since more then six decades have passed. I notice that Asia got over the evils of colonialism much faster so the line that everything bad is the white guys fault wears thin.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Nobody is asking for immediate since more then six decades have passed. I notice that Asia got over the evils of colonialism much faster so the line that everything bad is the white guys fault wears thin.

Africa is not a single entity, nor is Asia. Their colonial histories are also vastly different.

On a related note, I think you need to travel more. You had some pretty good insights in teh Kosovo thread, perhaps if you visited countries in Africa, teh Middle East, etc., you'd have a less sophomoric view of those places too.

[Kidlicious]

It's really got very little to do with colonialism or free trade. There are economic forces envolved that don't have to do with economic policies and world politics.

[Ramo]

Asia, in general, started out as far more economically advanced than sub-Saharan Africa place prior to European colonization. Comparing the two continents is completely absurd.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Africa is not a single entity, nor is Asia. Their colonial histories are also vastly different.

On a related note, I think you need to travel more. You had some pretty good insights in teh Kosovo thread, perhaps if you visited countries in Africa, teh Middle East, etc., you'd have a less sophomoric view of those places too.

I've probably travelled more then 90% of the people here. Including most of the US, half of Canada, Japan, Korea (twice), Thailand, Baharain, Kuwait, Iraq, most of western Europe, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo, Greece, Mexico, Panama, and Costa Rica.

I'd say I've gotten around.

[Patroklos]

Oerdin gets around

[Zkribbler]

I'd say he's been run out of a lot of places.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I've probably travelled more then 90% of the people here. Including most of the US, half of Canada, Japan, Korea (twice), Thailand, Baharain, Kuwait, Iraq, most of western Europe, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo, Greece, Mexico, Panama, and Costa Rica.

And AFAIK you haven't posted anything particularly silly about those countries (except teh US and Iraq, I guess).

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Nobody is asking for immediate since more then six decades have passed. I notice that Asia got over the evils of colonialism much faster so the line that everything bad is the white guys fault wears thin.

Asian states were already quite advanced and organized when Europe showed up. Furthermore, when Europe left (or got kicked out), the national divisions were mostly historical and the locals seized the foreign owned capital and turned a deaf ear to the advice of the word bank and the IMF. It still took most of them until very recently to develop and a large part of that came from Japanese capital from the 70s on when Japanese return on investment began declining. And Europe didn't commit genocide in Asia (the Dutch did on some islands in Indonesia) and completely destroy their economies.

Africa wasn't just conquered. It was beaten senseless and gang-raped, then mutilated.