Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

5 myths of anti-immigration talk

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 5 myths of anti-immigration talk

    5 myths of anti-immigration talk

    By Andres Oppenheimer
    Sunday, January 20, 2008

    Let's debunk the biggest myths of the anti-immigration movement that has swept this country and may still have an impact on the 2008 presidential race: that it is not anti-Hispanic, that it doesn't oppose legal immigration and that it's against only "illegal" immigration.

    Most U.S. Republican presidential hopefuls -- with the exception of Sen. John McCain -- and cable television anti-immigration crusaders on CNN and Fox News are deceiving the public with their claim that they are only against "illegal" immigration.

    • Myth No. 1: "We are only against illegal immigration. Undocumented immigrants should get in line for visas." That's deceptive because you can't demand that people get into line when, for the most part, there is no line to get into.

    While the U.S. labor market is demanding 1.5 million mostly low-skilled immigrants a year -- and will demand many more in coming years, as the U.S. population becomes increasingly educated -- the current immigration system allows into the U.S. an average of 1 million legal immigrants a year and most of them are already here.

    "There is a huge mismatch between what the U.S. labor market needs and the supply of immigration visas," says Frank Sharry, head of the National Immigration Forum, which advocates both secure borders and a path to legal residence for many of the 12 million-plus undocumented immigrants in the United States.

    On top of that, most anti-immigration groups want to reduce legal immigration. The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), a favorite of radio and cable television Hispanic immigrant-bashing news shows, wants to reduce legal immigration from the current 1 million a year to about 300,000, with a 20-year cooling-off period.

    • Myth No. 2: "Anti-immigration advocates are not anti-Hispanic." Maybe many aren't but when was the last time you heard anti-immigration Republican hopefuls or cable television talk show hosts lashing out against illegal immigrants from Canada?

    In addition, the escalating immigration hysteria has created an ugly environment that affects all Hispanics -- both legal and undocumented -- in many parts of the country, as recent studies by the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center have shown.

    "We are seeing more discrimination and harassment," says Michele Waslin, of the Immigration Policy Center. "Anybody who is Hispanic-looking or has an Hispanic last name is being treated as an undocumented immigrant."

    • Myth No. 3: "We are a nation of laws, and the law says you have to enter the country legally." Yes, but we are also a nation of immigrants. And, by the way, nearly half of all undocumented immigrants enter the country legally, and overstay their visas.

    • Myth No. 4: "Building a border fence will solve the problem." Wrong. As long as the per capita income in the United States is five times bigger than that of Mexico, and as long as U.S. labor market demands millions of low-skilled jobs that Americans won't fill, people will jump over the fence, dig tunnels under it or come through Canada.

    • Myth No. 5: Those of us who criticize anti-immigration groups are "amnesty" and "open borders" supporters. Baloney. Many support both border protection and an earned path to legalization for millions of undocumented workers who pay taxes and are willing to learn English.

    So, let's call things by their names and agree that most opponents of a comprehensive immigration package are anti-immigration.

    The only way to solve the current immigration crisis will be to legalize undocumented workers who have paid their dues and to increase economic integration with Mexico and the rest of Latin America in order to reduce poverty and emigration pressures south of the border.

    The rest is, for the most part, populist demagoguery.

    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

  • #2
    The solution is simple: cut the amount of places in your higher education facilities in half and do the same with welfare payments. This and your economiñ recession will create enough uneducated low-skilled Americans to fill in the jobs attractive to Hispanic immigrants. If everything works well, you'll probably be able to employ domestic garment workers for the same price as overseas ones.
    Graffiti in a public toilet
    Do not require skill or wit
    Among the **** we all are poets
    Among the poets we are ****.

    Comment


    • #3
      Frankly, I didn't think Oerdin could be topped for amount of bull****, but I stand corrected.
      Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
      "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
      He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm pro-immigration, but 1-3 are totally moronic... there are arguments that could be made, but whomever wrote this article is not so smart.
        <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
        I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: 5 myths of anti-immigration talk

          Originally posted by Oerdin
          • Myth No. 4: "Building a border fence will solve the problem." Wrong. As long as the per capita income in the United States is five times bigger than that of Mexico, and as long as U.S. labor market demands millions of low-skilled jobs that Americans won't fill, people will jump over the fence, dig tunnels under it or come through Canada.[/url]
          This (the economic disparity) is the most significant cause for migration. There's no keeping out migrants, unless they get 'breathing space' at home.

          It's not an easy problem to solve though
          "post reported"Winston, on the barricades for freedom of speech
          "I don't like laws all over the world. Doesn't mean I am going to do anything but post about it."Jon Miller

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: 5 myths of anti-immigration talk

            Originally posted by Oerdin
            The only way to solve the current immigration crisis will be to legalize undocumented workers who have paid their dues and to increase economic integration with Mexico and the rest of Latin America in order to reduce poverty and emigration pressures south of the border.

            The rest is, for the most part, populist demagoguery.

            http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_548344.html
            I thought the only way to solve the problem was to make a strong declarative statement with no proof, after setting up and burning 5 straw men?

            Boy was I suprised!

            Comment


            • #7
              The same goes for the other side though...
              "Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."

              Comment


              • #8
                1. I do not want my country over run by a foreign culture which does in many, though not all instances, learn the language.

                2. I do not want to pay my taxes to support social programs on the local, state and federal level of people who do not pay some, or any taxes.

                3. Some jobs, such as the construction industry, Americans really would do, if the wages were not driven into a hole by employers who pay illegal immigrants very little or below the minimum wage.

                4. The violation of federal laws on a mass scale irks me.

                5. Employers violating laws on a mass scale also irks me.

                Comment


                • #9
                  • Myth No. 1: "We are only against illegal immigration. Undocumented immigrants should get in line for visas." That's deceptive because you can't demand that people get into line when, for the most part, there is no line to get into.
                  So it's impossible to jump the hoops and immigrate legally? I'm sorry Oerdin. I just don't buy that. As for low skilled immigrants, there is even higher demand for educated immigrants and yes it is possible for them to immigrate.

                  I'm surprised that you aren't considering the demand for H-IB visas throughout the US, it's huge.

                  Yes the process is cumbersome, but that should spur initiatives to make the process easier, not to remove it altogether. I'm surprised. Do you really want to eliminate the immigration process entirely Oerdin?

                  • Myth No. 2: "Anti-immigration advocates are not anti-Hispanic." Maybe many aren't but when was the last time you heard anti-immigration Republican hopefuls or cable television talk show hosts lashing out against illegal immigrants from Canada?
                  Good question. Many can and do call for restrictions on all immigration, not just Mexican immigration, understanding that it's not where the immigrants come from, but the process of flouting the immigration laws. I think it's just as wrong as when Canadians do it as it is for Mexicans. Everyone who can and wants to immigrate should do so legally and jump the hoops, rather then doing so illegally.

                  • Myth No. 3: "We are a nation of laws, and the law says you have to enter the country legally." Yes, but we are also a nation of immigrants. And, by the way, nearly half of all undocumented immigrants enter the country legally, and overstay their visas.
                  Why did the Democrats, the party of Wilson and the party of 'immigrants' pass laws establishing immigration quotas?

                  That's my question for you Oerdin. Yes, you guys are a nation of immigrants, but in the 20th century, when they established welfare, they also put down immigration controls. No welfare, no immigration controls.

                  Maybe the issues are linked? Naah. After all, why would the American government be concerned of people who are on welfare yet don't pay taxes?

                  • Myth No. 4: "Building a border fence will solve the problem." Wrong. As long as the per capita income in the United States is five times bigger than that of Mexico, and as long as U.S. labor market demands millions of low-skilled jobs that Americans won't fill, people will jump over the fence, dig tunnels under it or come through Canada.
                  I think the fence is an expensive boondoggle, but heck, go on. All of the 'anti immigrant people' I have spoken to have said that enforcement not the fence is the crucial thing. A nation that doesn't stand by their laws isn't a nation whatsoever.

                  • Myth No. 5: Those of us who criticize anti-immigration groups are "amnesty" and "open borders" supporters. Baloney. Many support both border protection and an earned path to legalization for millions of undocumented workers who pay taxes and are willing to learn English.
                  IOW you do support amnesty and open borders. You've just restated the core principle of both, namely 'forgiving' those who have already came and giving them citizenship. That's amnesty. As for open borders, you believe that immigration controls are a bad thing, don't you Oerdin?
                  Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                  "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                  2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


                    So it's impossible to jump the hoops and immigrate legally? I'm sorry Oerdin. I just don't buy that. As for low skilled immigrants, there is even higher demand for educated immigrants and yes it is possible for them to immigrate.

                    I'm surprised that you aren't considering the demand for H-IB visas throughout the US, it's huge.

                    Yes the process is cumbersome, but that should spur initiatives to make the process easier, not to remove it altogether. I'm surprised. Do you really want to eliminate the immigration process entirely Oerdin?
                    That's not the weak link in that argument... the point is that UNSKILLED immigrants are in high demand but are basically unable to get in; and who exactly is going to pay the significant monetary (and time) costs to get someone to pick their grapes, bus tables in their restaurant, or trim their hedges?

                    The proper argument is, "If you're against ILLEGAL immigration solely due to the illegal/untracked nature of it, then expand legal immigration to make it possible for people to legally come over here for unskilled jobs. It is not currently practical for this to occur."


                    Good question. Many can and do call for restrictions on all immigration, not just Mexican immigration, understanding that it's not where the immigrants come from, but the process of flouting the immigration laws. I think it's just as wrong as when Canadians do it as it is for Mexicans. Everyone who can and wants to immigrate should do so legally and jump the hoops, rather then doing so illegally.

                    Anti-immigration sentiment is often a 'pc' version of anti-non-american sentiment (the common sentiment felt across the world for "I don't like (them), they're different than us". Sadly, it is indeed often 'where the immigrants come from', in that many opponents object to hispanics who are legally here just as quickly as illegal...


                    Why did the Democrats, the party of Wilson and the party of 'immigrants' pass laws establishing immigration quotas?

                    That's my question for you Oerdin. Yes, you guys are a nation of immigrants, but in the 20th century, when they established welfare, they also put down immigration controls. No welfare, no immigration controls.

                    Maybe the issues are linked? Naah. After all, why would the American government be concerned of people who are on welfare yet don't pay taxes?

                    That's a silly straw man... immigration quotas came with a US that was becoming concerned with the happenings of the outside world, and wanting to avoid being involved in such. They're not related to welfare as far as I'm concerned, as I'm fairly sure that if we ended welfare tomorrow the laws would stay. It's amazingly simple to restrict welfare to non-immigrants...


                    I think the fence is an expensive boondoggle, but heck, go on. All of the 'anti immigrant people' I have spoken to have said that enforcement not the fence is the crucial thing. A nation that doesn't stand by their laws isn't a nation whatsoever.

                    The fence is the best argument of that relatively poor article. The fence is no better than the berlin wall as far as I'm concerned; it's there for the political gain from saying "I'm pro-american and anti-mexican" and nothing else. A sad day for America if it gets built.

                    IOW you do support amnesty and open borders. You've just restated the core principle of both, namely 'forgiving' those who have already came and giving them citizenship. That's amnesty. As for open borders, you believe that immigration controls are a bad thing, don't you Oerdin?

                    It's quite possible to be against general amnesty (like 1984) but for allowing a legal path to citizenship for those who will take the appropriate steps. As you said above, jump through the hoops... it's just that the hoops are too hard/expensive to jump through right now, and there are too few of them; let's make the hoops more accessible and more numerous, in keeping with the demand of the economy. Immigration controls are not bad; unreasonable immigration policy is.

                    Our nation is having a serious problem with the loss of manufacturing jobs, and the main problem is the lack of people to do the work. It's a combination of wages - having to pay people more to retain them in an overly small job market - and simply lack of people in general. Increase the pool of people that are willing and interested in doing these jobs - in a reasonable, economically sustainable fashion - and perhaps we keep more factories over here instead of sending them south. More jobs, more Americans, and a stronger economy... what's not to like?
                    <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                    I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Vesayen
                      1. I do not want my country over run by a foreign culture which does in many, though not all instances, learn the language.

                      2. I do not want to pay my taxes to support social programs on the local, state and federal level of people who do not pay some, or any taxes.

                      3. Some jobs, such as the construction industry, Americans really would do, if the wages were not driven into a hole by employers who pay illegal immigrants very little or below the minimum wage.

                      4. The violation of federal laws on a mass scale irks me.

                      5. Employers violating laws on a mass scale also irks me.
                      1. As I do not live in your country, I can not comment on your particular situation. However, looking at the situation in my country I can say those "over run" comments are very often exagerated to a large degree (I am not saying there aren't any problems, but our culture is not in danger of being overrun).

                      2. I don't think illegal immigrants get acces to a lot of social programs. Besides the additional profit your companies make by employing these people will generate more then enough taxes to cover these losses.

                      3. That is indeed a problem. On the other hand, if these guys were legal they still would work for less than the average John Doe. (the difference would be smaller I agree, but I just don't see how keeping starting a man hunt on illegal aliens out is going to improve the situation).

                      4. & 5. yes, and 1+1=2.

                      The whole illegal alien thing is just a quick way to get votes and move the voters attention away from the underlying economical problems the developed world is facing.
                      "Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I didn't see a single myth in there Oerdin. In fact, his pathetic attempt at portraying legitimate gripes as such backfired horribly.

                        Oerdin, doing my job for me
                        "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Why am I not suprised that Oerdin liked that article? It was full of bluster and low on substance.
                          I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                          For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            That's not the weak link in that argument... the point is that UNSKILLED immigrants are in high demand but are basically unable to get in; and who exactly is going to pay the significant monetary (and time) costs to get someone to pick their grapes, bus tables in their restaurant, or trim their hedges?
                            Good question.

                            I was just pointing out that the immigration to the US is much more then just unskilled labour, it is the skilled labour too. To say that all immigration is unskilled is painting a false picture.

                            The proper argument is, "If you're against ILLEGAL immigration solely due to the illegal/untracked nature of it, then expand legal immigration to make it possible for people to legally come over here for unskilled jobs. It is not currently practical for this to occur."
                            Actually you can, there's a separate category for it, but as I am told it's difficult and time consuming. It didn't used to be that way, but there also wasn't welfare back then either.

                            Anti-immigration sentiment is often a 'pc' version of anti-non-american sentiment (the common sentiment felt across the world for "I don't like (them), they're different than us". Sadly, it is indeed often 'where the immigrants come from', in that many opponents object to hispanics who are legally here just as quickly as illegal...
                            It's a straw man and not worthy of discussion. Saying they are just "racists" is wrong. Many people who are minorities themselves have problems with illegal immigration. Did you ever think about that, but I guess it's just evil whitey keeping the brown people down.

                            That's a silly straw man... immigration quotas came with a US that was becoming concerned with the happenings of the outside world, and wanting to avoid being involved in such.
                            So the US in the 19th century wasn't concerned about the outside world at all? I think this is a very weak argument.

                            Look it up. When were immigration controls established in the first place and why did the policy change? I'll hint that it had something to do with Margaret Sanger and limiting the number of evil brown people from the US.

                            It's quite possible to be against general amnesty (like 1984) but for allowing a legal path to citizenship for those who will take the appropriate steps.
                            I'm not sure it is possible to do both, unless you believe it's ok under a democratic president and not ok under a republican.

                            As you said above, jump through the hoops... it's just that the hoops are too hard/expensive to jump through right now, and there are too few of them; let's make the hoops more accessible and more numerous, in keeping with the demand of the economy. Immigration controls are not bad; unreasonable immigration policy is.
                            The problem with this is that the hoops for legal immigration apply BEFORE they come to the US. If you grant amnesty for those who are already there, then you basically remove the incentive for people to get their affairs in order before they come.

                            More jobs, more Americans, and a stronger economy... what's not to like?
                            I would support making it easier to come over, but it is necessary for the US to keep the restrictions they had on people entering the country. Your suggestions just seem like amnesty to me.
                            Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                            "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                            2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              nm
                              "In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed. But they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace. And what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
                              —Orson Welles as Harry Lime

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X