CBS News Report on U.S. Military's "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy

[Patroklos]

Now, men and women however, have not had such a precedent in sharing showers together; maybe this is because of their obvious biological-gendered based differences when they are both stripped of clothing? (shrugs)

I wanted to use the "obvious differences" line to, but isn't that insuliting to gays to say they can't find the female body as attractive as a man, or a man's body as attractive as a female?

And while gay and straight men have been sharing showers/living quarters for a degree for a long time know, only one side know. Would that change when everyone was open?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Patroklos


I wanted to use the "obvious differences" line to, but isn't that insuliting to gays to say they can't find the female body as attractive as a man, or a man's body as attractive as a female?

And while gay and straight men have been sharing showers/living quarters for a degree for a long time know, only one side know. Would that change when everyone was open?

How the hell would a gay man find it insulting to know that he cannot find the female body as attractive as a male body?

I think I would like to Google first-hand experiences from both, openly gay men and straight men who serve in U.S. military units and see if I can find accounts where these men claim there have never been serious problems. But what should I use for such a Google search? "Openly gay military servicemen?"

[Patroklos]

How the hell would a gay man find it insulting to know that he cannot find the female body as attractive as a male body?

Gay, as in men and women homosexuals. Is it not condecenting/insulting for me to think I would find a woman more attractive than a gay man would find another man?

As far as a search, I am not sure having never done so. You would be hard pressed to find current military members though. I am sure they are out there, good luck.

[MrFun]

No, I've never made the claim that straight men have less sexual control around women than gay men do around other men.

[Berzerker]

if someone wants to serve their country in the military, it dont matter to me if they're straight or gay. If thats a problem for someone else, they dont have to serve their country in the military. To deny someone the honor of serving because I'm uncomfortable is my problem, not theirs.

[Wezil]

Men and women together Berz? If the women feel uncomfortable that's their problem?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wezil
Men and women together Berz? If the women feel uncomfortable that's their problem?

Yes.

I'm sure there was hesitation also when the first racially integrated units debuted, but people got over it. As soon as Patty gets over this like his predecessors in the fabulous south got over their racism, it'll all be good. The US is just behind the curve here.

[Patroklos]

I'm sure there was hesitation also when the first racially integrated units debuted

Race and sex are not the same thing Asher. Race and sexual orientation are not the same thing Asher. This strawman was burned on the pyre of your outburst yesterday Asher.

As soon as Patty gets over this like his predecessors in the fabulous south got over their racism, it'll all be good.

Canadian women share quarters with men in the CF?

[Thue]

Originally posted by Oerdin
It seems to me DanS is going through contortions to deny reality.

Yes. I usually have respect for DanS' opinions, but his comments in the start of this thread seem to be deliberately misleading.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Race and sex are not the same thing Asher. Race and sexual orientation are not the same thing Asher. This strawman was burned on the pyre of your outburst yesterday Asher.

It's not a strawman. Apparently you don't know what a strawman is, go figure. For your edification, the "strawman" is precisely what you've done repeatedly in this thread by presenting the argument that I said gays are superior. That's a strawman.

I'm saying they're equivalent struggles. People were upset that integrating the black soldiers with the white soldiers would cause "organizational stress" and would cause stress and pressures etcetc that would be detrimental to the unit.

That's just known fact. If you don't see the parallels, that's your problem, 'cause they're clear as day.

[Patroklos]

It's not a strawman. Apparently you don't know what a strawman is, go figure.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[per Wiki]

Race = a social construct with no biological behavioral/psychological requirements or status other than what we give it.

Gender = a biological fact with undeniable and for the most part unalterable behavioral/psychological underpinnings.

Sexual Orientation = a biological fact (I assume you believe this) with undeniable and for the most part unalterable behavioral/psychological underpinnings.

Gender and Sexual Orientation issues are similar.

Race and Gender/Sexual Orientation issues have nothing to do with each other.

Learn. Apply.

I'm saying they're equivalent struggles. People were upset that integrating the black soldiers with the white soldiers would cause "organizational stress" and would cause stress and pressures etcetc that would be detrimental to the unit.

And those people were right. The difference is that race is a figment of people's imagination. The sexuality of men and women not matter who they are attracted to, is not.

That's just known fact. If you don't see the parallels, that's your problem, 'cause they're clear as day.

They are superficially the same, or in other words not the same. This is fine and dandy when arguing lofty thoughts like integration devoid of any practical discussion of what it would look like.

Unfortunately, that’s now what we were talking about.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Race = a social construct with no biological behavioral/psychological requirements or status other than what we give it.

Gender = a biological fact with undeniable and for the most part unalterable behavioral/psychological underpinnings.

Sexual Orientation = a biological fact (I assume you believe this) with undeniable and for the most part unalterable behavioral/psychological underpinnings.

Gender and Sexual Orientation issues are similar.

Race and Gender/Sexual Orientation issues have nothing to do with each other.

Learn. Apply.

You can't be serious?

FWIW, race is also a biological fact. Unless you think a black man and black woman and use society to have a white child.

And those people were right. The difference is that race is a figment of people's imagination.

Uhh...no, race is real. WTF?

The sexuality of men and women not matter who they are attracted to, is not.

Race and sexuality are both real, buddy.

What kind of education do you have -- honestly?

[Patroklos]

FWIW, race is also a biological fact. Unless you think a black man and black woman and use society to have a white child.

Your skin pigment is real Asher, your race and all the baggage that word brings with it, is not. It is a social construct, nothing more.

I am not really sure why just lowered your shield with that amazingly daft post above. Assuming you don't edit it, you are basically about to be smeared across this board by whoever is left in this thread.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Your skin pigment is real Asher, your race and all the baggage that word brings with it, is not. It is a social construct, nothing more.

I am not really sure why just lowered your shield with that amazingly daft post above. Assuming you don't edit it, you are basically about to be smeared across this board by whoever is left in this thread.

Race is real, Patty. There's a genetic (and thus, biological) basis for it.

Racism is a social construct.

I don't think you understand the difference. I don't think you understand a lot of things, actually.

[Asher]

Did you know that "race" is actually a scientific biological term?

It's a taxonomic rank. No biological basis.