CBS News Report on U.S. Military's "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Why? I could man Latvia's army with spider monkeys and you would never know the difference. You have to put the organization under sustained stress to see where the weaknesses are.

Canada's permits people to openly serve. I know one such gay private (Asian-Canadian also), in infantry, and he's had no issues at all and is open about it.

[Patroklos]

Canada's permits people to openly serve. I know one such gay private (Asian-Canadian also), in infantry, and he's had no issues at all and is open about it.

Is Canada's armed forces under stress?

[Asher]

You've obviously never been to Wainwright.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Is Canada's armed forces under stress?

That's a pretty stupid question dude.

I have a recollection of a buncha CF servicemen in Afghanistan.

[Asher]

Canada has a lot of troops in Afghanistan, working the most dangerous parts of it. Many Canadian troops have died in recent years in combat. I reckon that constitutes stress.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Asher
Canada has a lot of troops in Afghanistan, working the most dangerous parts of it. Many Canadian troops have died in recent years in combat. I reckon that constitutes stress.

That was kind of my point.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Asher


Canada's permits people to openly serve. I know one such gay private (Asian-Canadian also), in infantry, and he's had no issues at all and is open about it.

Indeed; and when I watched the 60 Minutes report on "don't ask don't tell" in the U.S. military, the majority of the gay men who had served and were interviewed in this report, clearly stated that they had no serious problems after coming out to their comrades within their units. And, I'm sure they were using the same showers, AND these men are the same young adult men Pat speaks of.

[Ramo]

But that doesn't mean it constitutes (conveniently undefined) gay-fracturing stress...

[Patroklos]

Canada has a lot of troops in Afghanistan, working the most dangerous parts of it. Many Canadian troops have died in recent years in combat. I reckon that constitutes stress.

Are there some individual units, sure. Canada's military as an organization, no. There really isn't any Western military under anything considered orgainzation wide "high tempo" stress besides the US. And even with us the Air Force isn't taxed so much rigtht now. Hell, our peacetime stress is higher than Canada's current stress.

I would look at Canada's Navy, because a deployed warhship really is a world unto itself. Regarless of what the rest of the military is up to, that ship is really doing its own thing, and wartime/peacetime steaming in the gulf is really not too much different in a lot of ways.

And I would put forward that the level of gay partcipation does matter. If a ship has one openly gay crew member, it is no real big deal to accomidate that, and that goes for any minority group. We had four Iraqis onboard for awhile, and if you think that didn't require kit gloves and some change in routine/procedure you are kidding yourself.

Anyone have any numbers on Canada's gay servicemebers? Specifically in deployed combat units?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Are there some individual units, sure. Canada's military as an organization, no. There really isn't any Western military under anything considered orgainzation wide "high tempo" stress besides the US. And even with us the Air Force isn't taxed so much rigtht now. Hell, our peacetime stress is higher than Canada's current stress.

You're flat-out wrong. You're also being deeply insulting and disrespectful to the men and women risking their lives overseas. I recommend you cease immediately before you piss a lot more people off.

To even compare the stress of a soldier fighting in Afghanistan to a soldier in peacetime in the USA is ridiculous. Highly, highly insulting.

[Asher]

[Patroklos]

You're flat-out wrong. You're also being deeply insulting and disrespectful to the men and women risking their lives overseas. I recommend you cease immediately before you piss a lot more people off.

You have 2500 troops in Afghanistan, whcih is 3% of your military numbers (including reserves, per Wiki). That can not be considered organizational level stress irregardless of what any individual unit is currently experiancing .

And no Asher, I have said nothing that can be construed in any way as being insulting to anybody in the Canadian Forces. I suggest YOU calm down.

What does that vidoe prove besides you being an emotional child?

I repeat: Your argument makes absolutely no sense. We're talking about a policy of allowing gay people to serve openly in the military, not a policy forcing gay people in the military to come out. Whether or not a particular gay person in the military wants to publicly come out is completely irrelevant to the question at hand.

Ramo, what the hell are you talking about? I have been talking in this thread about what the character of open gay service would/should be and how female integration can show you what some of th issues might be, not about whether or not it should happen.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos


You have 2500 troops in Afghanistan, whcih is 3% of your military numbers (including reserves, per Wiki). That can not be considered organizational level stress irregardless of what any individual unit is currently experiancing .

And no Asher, I have said nothing that can be construed in any way as being insulting to anybody in the Canadian Forces. I suggest YOU calm down.

I don't know, I'd say comparing the levels of stress to the troops watching their friends getting killed in Afghanistan to the levels of stress of American soldiers in peacetime is just a LITTLE insulting and disrespectful.

The number of troops doesn't matter. We're talking about people and how they interact. You're being a tool. Stop it. We're not talking about logistics here. We're not stupid, don't pretend we are.

There are gay Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan risking their lives for others. There's no problems. There's no problems from the UK soldiers risking their lives elsewhere. Ditto for any other country on the face of this earth that permits gays to serve openly. Get over it.

[Asher]

Patroklos: You have a very fundamental misunderstanding about this argument.

We're not talking about "organizational stress".
We're not talking about logistics.
We're not talking about how many troops are deployed and how the US is by far the bigger warmonger in terms of troop deployments.

What we're talking about is how openly gay people can serve in the military. The simple fact is, openly gay people do serve in combat situations on a regular basis around the world. They serve in tight confines and high-stress situations, too.

Your attempts to dismiss this with your crap about "organizational stress" is just ridiculous.

[Patroklos]

I don't know, I'd say comparing the levels of stress to the troops watching their friends getting killed in Afghanistan to the levels of stress of American soldiers in peacetime is just a LITTLE insulting and disrespectful

That would make sence if I had

1.) done that or

2.) was even talking about individuals or units, which I wasn't

The whole organization Asher, specfically the Canadian Forces versus the USDoD. Not hard to grasp, reread and calm down.

The number of troops doesn't matter. We're talking about people and how they interact. You're being a tool. Stop it. We're not talking about logistics here. We're not stupid, don't pretend we are.

Well then provide a personal first hand experiance at managing the issues/problems involved with integration of military units, or retrun to your spectators seat. All I see you doing looking for a reason to be pissed of, and looking a little foolish while doing so.

There are gay Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan risking their lives for others. There's no problems. There's no problems from the UK soldiers risking their lives elsewhere. Ditto for any other country on the face of this earth that permits gays to serve openly. Get over

Gays are perfect right, I suppose they have no issues simlar to those created by putting men and women together. Gays are just that much more mature than everyone else eh?

What we're talking about is how openly gay people can serve in the military. The simple fact is, openly gay people do serve in combat situations on a regular basis around the world. They serve in tight confines and high-stress situations

Yeah, I suppose thats why I didn't ask for the expericance of your gay sailors, being totally independent of overall organizational stress. Oh wait, I did.

You are obvioulsy no longer interested in discussion. Well, you can prove me wrong by admitting your complete overeaction and false accusation against me concering your fatacy of me insulting your troops. You can put that in place of that rather nice video of your CF guy.