Hey, atheists . . . .

[Omni Rex Draconis]

Originally posted by MrFun
I did not mean to claim that atheism was the motivation for Stalin

ARGH!

Then you shouldn't write words like, "crimes against humanity that were committed for the sake of atheistic means/goals. Stalin's bloody purge of Orthodox and Catholic clergy for example." in your OP.

You might give people the wrong impression!

Originally posted by MrFun
The fact that he was an atheist made it all the more acceptable to him to mass murder Orthodox and Catholic clergy for his goal of absolute power.

Oh really? And why is that, exactly?

Because he did not think that he would earn sadistic and eternal torment in some fictional afterlife? Seems rational to me.

Or are you saying that because he believed there is no god then it follows he has no reason to be moral?

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Ben, all you're doing there is taking any aspect of life, culture, science or philosophy that does not have God at the centre of the universe and claiming it as 'proof' of atheism as religion.

I am sure Ben's post was to be read as humour; I don't think he expected anyone to take such a contrived riposte seriously.


Frankly, the best posts in the thread have been by Elok and Wezil - this thing is flawed from the get go.

[CrONoS]

Agnostics people killed a lot more people than religious and atheists TOGETHER.

We must blame the agnostics...

[ZEE]

by the snake in the grass snitch:
Hmm, nope.

aww whats wrong tassi? You need some human contact after all? tired of reading the same goddamn thread over and over and over with 1 reply every 2 hours?

you actually physically sicken me Tassi. I dislike you vehemently. I would never trust you in real life with anything and if i ever met you i would not give you the time of day. You play with peoples emotions and then cry for pity with all the crap between you and your father. You had my sympathy once but you kept giving me the same regurgitated bull**** responses you give everybody when i came to you for help. you are a snake in the grass, unpleasant to be around, and the main reason i will never post at Eventis again to raise their post count by even 1.

try to have a good life and never talk to me again please.

sorry for the threadjack. back on topic...

[CrONoS]

If you believe in yourself; and you kill someone to have his money...

What kind of murderers are you?

- Agnostic
- Atheists
- Religious
- CrONoS you're stupid!

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by AAHZ
aww whats wrong tassi? You need some human contact after all? tired of reading the same goddamn thread over and over and over with 1 reply every 2 hours?

Yes

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, all you're doing there is taking any aspect of life, culture, science or philosophy that does not have God at the centre of the universe and claiming it as 'proof' of atheism as religion.

First off, the definition I posted is not my own creation, it is considered the 4th definition of 'religion.' Now I would consider it to be an improper definition I think that religion in general must have something to do with the supernatural world, which would exclude atheism as a religion.

Honestly, I think molly asks some good questions, and that there have been examples of each of these things done for secular reasons.

I mean, look at the lineups for Lenin's Tomb. Rightly or wrongly, it matches the exact same pilgrimage behaviour we see of religion, except done for a completely secular reason. What am I supposed to make of that? I have seen entirely secular people go to San Francisco because it was seen as a haven for the counterculture.

Yes, the post is somewhat flippant, but I believe there is some truth there.

[Ben Kenobi]

Has Ben reached the point where he has developed his own Ned-esque Beniverse?

Ned's property was up for sale and the price was a very good deal...

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I mean, look at the lineups for Lenin's Tomb. Rightly or wrongly, it matches the exact same pilgrimage behaviour we see of religion, except done for a completely secular reason.

Tourism is religion now?

[snoopy369]

Atheism, in the sense that we are discussing from the OP (aggressive atheists), is a positive philosophy in and of itself. It is not a negating philosophy - it is the concrete belief that there is no god. It shows several characteristics of a religion:
* Belief in something that cannot be tangibly observed. Belief that there is no God is no different from belief that there is one; you cannot prove either case with the evidence at hand.
* Aggressive rejection of other religions: perhaps this one is obvious? Christians reject Hindu beliefs; Atheists reject both beliefs, aggressively.
* Aggressive proselytizing of own religion: Atheists regularly engage in discussion attempting to convince others that their beliefs are wrong, and that there is no god (which is the prime tenet of atheism).
* Judgmental attitude towards members of other religions: Read this thread and others...

Those criteria are met pretty easily, just by reading Apolyton threads. Of course I don't imply that EVERY atheist has these attitudes; but I would suggest that not EVERY Christian does either. Molly's criteria are that of ORGANIZED religion; although there are organized atheisms (Stalinism is one), atheism as a whole is not generally organized. Organization is not necessary for religion However, I would point to Nietzsche and others if you need a "philosophical leader" so to speak.

Ultimately the point of this thread was that Stalin and Mao (and probably others...) have committed atrocities in the name of Atheism, or equivalently anti-religion; thus implying that the horrible things attributed to Religion are perhaps instead attributable to Human Nature instead, and are not necessarily an integral aspect of Religion. People can do horrible things, particularly when they have a philosophy/religion to convince others to follow without truly understanding.

[Sandman]

People who don't keep bees are still a kind of beekeeper. I mean, checking a filing cabinet or taking the casing off a PC is basically the same as checking the hives.

Just as beekeepers sell their honey, so non-beekeepers sell things which aren't honey, thus proving they are, in fact, beekeepers.

[BeBMan]

Another thread resulting in everything is the same, meaning Christians are Atheists too

Oh and digging out historical examples does prove **** one way or the other for/against religion/atheism per se.

And oh 2) esp. cool is the "Atheism did crimes too (teh Stalin), but hey, atheism is also a religion" thinking.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Sandman
People who don't keep bees are still a kind of beekeeper. I mean, checking a filing cabinet or taking the casing off a PC is basically the same as checking the hives.

Just as beekeepers sell their honey, so non-beekeepers sell things which aren't honey, thus proving they are, in fact, beekeepers.

:applause:

[Whaleboy]

It's certainly true that regimes such as Stalin's and Hitler's were outwardly described as atheistic (particularly the former). In saying this we forget that they used many of the methods used by, religion to achieve their atrocities. However, that is beside the point.

The point is that whereas such things as the Inquisition, 9/11, the pogroms, the general slaughterfest surrounding Arianism and the problems in Israel were clearly motivated by religion, can the same be said of atheism?

More to the point, is there any atheist inclination that would have caused Stalin's regime to be the way it was? Of course not. The OP is a classic example of a bull**** argument.

You might as well have blamed Hitler's moustache for the holocaust.

Remember that atheism is not a holistic philosophy. It is not a system of belief, a moral code or a way of living your life. It is simply a philosophical statement "I am convinced that there is no god". To argue that it leads to immorality assumes that morality comes from god. If you accept that, then all atheists are naturally more inclined toward acts of barbarism and violence.

Despite the fears of many American christians, I doubt that the bible belt is full of roaming bands of vicious atheists, smashing churches with baseball bats, sodomising your children and brandishing dangerous books by Richard Dawkins and Philip Pullman .

[Wezil]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Atheism, in the sense that we are discussing from the OP (aggressive atheists), is a positive philosophy in and of itself. It is not a negating philosophy - it is the concrete belief that there is no god. It shows several characteristics of a religion:
* Belief in something that cannot be tangibly observed. Belief that there is no God is no different from belief that there is one; you cannot prove either case with the evidence at hand....

Sorry Snoopy, I couldn't make it past this comment w/o gagging. I hope the rest of your post was better.

The requirement for proof is not on me. I'm not making extraordinary claims, the theists are.

Prove to me the Purple Unicorn doesn't exist please.

Strangely theists have ruled out some Gods w/o proof (Zeus, Purple Unicorn) but accept others w/o proof. Selective imaginary beings.

[Cort Haus]