The final solution to the demographic problem of Europe?

[Ben Kenobi]

Correlation is not causation...we did not grow to increase our technology level, we increased our populations as our technology improved the amount of food we could produce.

I agree. The two are complementary. If it were true that population growth was contrary to the improvement in technology, then we would not expect technological improvements to produce a sustained population increase. Population increases, you have more people who can do more things. These people make it easier to produce more for other people. It all comes down to one thing. Do you believe people take more then what they give back? Say a man has 10 kids. Would you seriously say that the 10 kids are only going to produce as much as the one man?

[Dis]

Originally posted by Elok
I would generally avoid using the words "final solution" to describe a situation where a larger population is desired. Actually, I'd avoid the phrase entirely...

it's in bad taste imho.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Which is worse then in Africa? If the worst problem in europe is declining fish stocks, then europe is very well off.

MORE FISH HATE! FISH ARE PEOPLE TOO*!

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
- Dubya



* I'm aware that fish are not in fact people by general definition, but goddammit, they have a right to live. Not to mention that hunting them to extinction is just plain moronic when we could hunt sustainably and eat fish until the sun burns out.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Heraclitus


I bow to the glorius Chairman's wisdom, but I beg to differ.

BTW Good one Blake Either of these is better though.



...

damn you, I really want to play that game now. nostalgia attack.

[Ben Kenobi]

Is the objective of the "Humanity game" to fill the planet with as many humans are possible?

Or is the objective to maximize "Average quality of life"?

That's a very utilitarian perspective. How does one measure average quality of life? By any objective measure, I think most people would prefer the modern world and our conveniences of today to the world of previous.

There could also be the objective of maximizing the cumulative quality of life. So it's better to have twice as many people whose lives are 60% as good, but not better to have four times as many people whose lives are 20% as good.

I don't really believe that there is anything we can define as 'quality of life.' Honestly there is just life. Whether it is quality or not is irrelevant. We don't get to choose whether our life is quality or not.

The problem with the quality of life thesis is that it presumes that no life could be better then a bad one. I would hope most people who believe their life is not worthwhile would work towards making themselves a better life, then committing suicide.

I DO know that Buddhism takes a clear stance on this issue - it's average quality of life which matters and QoL is measured through joy/bliss not wealth. I don't think most religions/philosophies actually think about it at all.

You should open your eyes. From the Christian perspective, we are taught that it is not our life here that counts, but our life in heaven. We are taught that suffering is a part of life and can be very helpful to a person. We are taught that the true joys and the things we hunger for cannot be found anywhere on earth, and we will only get them in heaven, because we were not made for here, it is our temporary home.

I don't know about you but I find that much more satisfying then continually striving for the perfect bliss, when such a state is never reached.

[Dis]

Originally posted by C0ckney


i wonder how you've reached this conclusion. why are there, or will be, too many humans? what is this based on?

errr.. how about global warming will completely destroy all of human population (and most other species)?

We ****ed this planet up and the human race deserves to die for this.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
You should open your eyes. From the Christian perspective, we are taught that it is not our life here that counts, but our life in heaven.

Heaven is a place in a mind.

I don't know about you but I find that much more satisfying then continually striving for the perfect bliss, when such a state is never reached.

And bliss is found in striving for nothing, in being content with what you have, where you are, and what you are doing.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
That's a very utilitarian perspective. How does one measure average quality of life? By any objective measure, I think most people would prefer the modern world and our conveniences of today to the world of previous.

We CAN play the "Better or worse than" game.

Is it better or worse, to have fish in the ocean? To have the option of observing those fish, or eating those fish?

Come on. Better or worse?

Is it really THAT hard?

[Ben Kenobi]

Heaven is a place in a mind.

How do you know this? What if it is a real place just like here, except more real then anything we have ever known?

What happens when your mind dies? Does that mean your existence ceases? Again, I don't really see the point of such bliss when it fades so quickly.

Is it better or worse, to have fish in the ocean? To have the option of observing those fish, or eating those fish?

Well in my opinion it's better to leave the fish alone and just eat cow. Cow is very good. It makes me happy.

[Blake]

Your Christian God is obligated to not force me to enter Heaven.
I use compassion as my guiding principle, it's what I fill my mind with, this means, the place I WANT to be, is in Hell, where I can do good. Why on earth would I, a compassionate being, want to be in Heaven? I'd be downright miserable there! I'd keep badgering God to forgive all the sinners in Hell. "Yo God. I've forgiven them. Isn't it time for you to?", and I'd get all the other folk down "Hey, you know there's this place where lots of people are suffering for all eternity because they like masturbated once or something, shouldn't we be doing something?"
And if God sent me to Hell, I would make it less of a Hell, by doing whatever good I can, I would be very happy there, it is bliss to do good work and my Mind is a place where demons cannot enter.
My place is not in Heaven, for I would make it less of a Heaven.
My place is not in Hell, for I would make it less of a Hell.

There's a REASON that Buddha guy is called "Teacher of Men and Gods".
GOD has not got over his petty attachments. Buddha has.

So what WILL happen when I arrive at the pearly gates?
God: OH GREAT! Another %^#&ing smug Buddhist. I'll just do the same thing as I do with the rest of them, send them back down! It's where they want to be! BAH!
--> Proof of rebirth!

[Ben Kenobi]

Your Christian God is obligated to not force me to enter Heaven.

He won't force anyone, because as you said those who choose not to be with him will get exactly what they want, eternal life without God. Whether they like what they get is another matter.

I use compassion as my guiding principle, it's what I fill my mind with, this means, the place I WANT to be, is in Hell, where I can do good.

What purpose is there to do good in hell. You can't die. The people who are there don't want to go to heaven. If you badgered them I suspect they wouldn't be too fond.

I'd be downright miserable there! I'd keep badgering God to forgive all the sinners in Hell. "Yo God. I've forgiven them. Isn't it time for you to?"

It is easy to forgive someone for offenses that have not been committed against you. God forgives everyone who says that they have repented and that what they did was wrong.

I'd get all the other folk down "Hey, you know there's this place where lots of people are suffering for all eternity because they like masturbated once or something, shouldn't we be doing something?"

And more then likely they would look at you and say, they have chosen to be there. We cannot force them into heaven anymore then we must accept their choice. It's not so much about the sinning, it's about choosing to be apart from God. God forgives sinners, and those who are in Heaven are those who he has forgiven of sins after sins. I think anyone who is in heaven will be grateful that he is there.

And if God sent me to Hell, I would make it less of a Hell, by doing whatever good I can, I would be very happy there, it is bliss to do good work and my Mind is a place where demons cannot enter.

Demons live there blake. That is their home. They don't have a big guy in the sky restraining them either. It's well and good to want to do good things but again, the people there would just ignore you.

My place is not in Heaven, for I would make it less of a Heaven.

My place is not in Hell, for I would make it less of a Hell.

Yes, Lucifer is well spoken isn't he? So you would choose hell over heaven? Somehow I don't think he would have much time for someone who wanted to do good and help his fellow man.

There's a REASON that Buddha guy is called "Teacher of Men and Gods".

GOD has not got over his petty attachments. Buddha has.

Buddha was born and lived and died. He was a wise teacher as there have been many here on this earth who have lived and died.

You seem to believe that petty attachments are a bad thing. God loves us very much. So much so he came to earth and he died for us, becoming a man and subject to the same infirmities as anyone else.

Maybe Buddha sees love as a petty attachment. I cannot agree.

So what WILL happen when I arrive at the pearly gates?
God: OH GREAT! Another %^#&ing smug Buddhist. I'll just do the same thing as I do with the rest of them, send them back down! It's where they want to be! BAH!
--> Proof of rebirth!

Actaully you'd get stuck in purgatory till God goes down and sorts everything all out. This planet isn't meant to be our permanent home. Eventually all this we see and rely upon will fade away as if it was never there.

[Blake]

Ahah! Punchline time!
My place is not in purgatory, for I would make it a Heaven.


Now I have something interesting to say.

Masturbation is bliss unimaginable!

Words are just words, foolish one. Where does YOUR truth come from? Does it come from words?

My truth comes from inside myself. Truths like "Words are just words". I can verbalize these truths to an extent, but they were things which were never verbalized to me. They are things I know to be true because they come from a place which is incorruptible by man. Words can be corrupted. Inner truth can not.


You speak of bliss, as if it is something which can be fleeting.

You speak of demons, as if they are something to fear.

Where is your wisdom?

[Ari Rahikkala]

I think this thread got broken

[Elok]

Eh, it was pretty inane to begin with, but yes.

[Krill]

Personally I'd rather just shrink the size of the human population and live a good quality of life with meat (mmm, burgers :homer