Worst ending to a sci-fi trilogy?

[Imran Siddiqui]

But Palpatine had to be an invincible badass. It just makes the original trilogy so much cooler... he just underestimated the effect Luke would have on Vader (if Luke refused to join him, he would have died).

[kittenOFchaos]

I didn't like the end of Babylon 5 personnally, the poisoning of the Earth's atmosphere gave us too much credit. Hell, that whole episode with the new uber ship was pretty bad and that once again the best course is to ram another spaceship with yours - cue people looking heroic.

[Kontiki]

The thing is, Palpatine didn't come off as an invincible badass, he came off as a mildly coniving politician that anyone with half a brain could have seen through, stopped and/or resisted. The fact that no one did is what made the premise so bad.

[Aeson]

Mace Windu owned Palpatine. I don't know if it was supposed to be part of Palpatine's play to let it happen... but it sure looked like he just got reamed until Anakin stepped in.

Anakin/Obi Wan duel was crap. Yoda/Dooku bad. The good lightsaber fights in the series had decent dialog, and didn't rely so much on action... because lightsaber duels get really boring pretty quick.

Episode 3 was destined to be bad because of the anemic "love story" in episode 2. For Anakin to snap like that... you'd think it'd take more than an "it's in the storyline so we'll cut from date-type scene to date-type scene for 10 minutes and maybe say some stuff to pretend like something is between us" connection with Padme. The relationship in episode 3 was somehow worse though, so it didn't matter much.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Aeson
Mace Windu owned Palpatine. I don't know if it was supposed to be part of Palpatine's play to let it happen... but it sure looked like he just got reamed until Anakin stepped in.

Yeah, it was part of the plan. He made himself look so helpless so Anakin would realize how corrupt the Jedi was, and how willing to forget their ideals when push came to shove (killing a "defenseless" person). The fact that Palpy was strong enough to shoot Windu out the window after Anakin cut off his arm and seem to be in normal health right afterwards showed the ruse, but by then Anakin was in too deep (helping kill a Jedi Knight... try explaining that!).

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yeah, it was part of the plan. He made himself look so helpless so Anakin would realize how corrupt the Jedi was, and how willing to forget their ideals when push came to shove (killing a "defenseless" person). The fact that Palpy was strong enough to shoot Windu out the window after Anakin cut off his arm and seem to be in normal health right afterwards showed the ruse, but by then Anakin was in too deep (helping kill a Jedi Knight... try explaining that!).

My point is, if you just watch the movie... Mace beats Palpatine. (I'm not sure what was "supposed" to happen based on the books, but in the movie that's undeniable.) Mace didn't have his lightsaber (or arm or concentration) when Palpatine hit him... it's not like Mace hadn't just soaked up like 30 seconds of that force energy already.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm not basing it on the books (never read them). Just the movie.

[Aeson]

Mace has complete control of the whole fight, even before Anakin shows up. For what you're saying to work, somehow Palpatine would have had to have exhibited control before Anakin shows up, and then "given it away". Otherwise Palpatine is just a poser...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, Mace is either a far superior Jedi knight to the others that came to arrest the emperor, or Palpatine manipulated the situation from the get go.

I saw it as the later when watching the movie.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well, Mace is either a far superior Jedi knight to the others that came to arrest the emperor, or Palpatine manipulated the situation from the get go.

I saw it as the later when watching the movie.

Those 3 were just redshirts.

Watch the moment when Mace loses his arm. Palpatine was dead if Anakin screws up (or even if not... if physics work ). And it wasn't like in ROTJ and the complete faith shown in Darth Vader to stop Luke's hand. Palpatine definitely cringes at the coming blow here.

If you watch the whole movie it's clear that the upper-eschelon Jedi are similarly powerful to Palpatine at the time.

Yoda's fight with Palpatine makes it very clear. In it Palpatine has absolutely no reason to play weak, and it's basically a draw. The movie makes it seem like Yoda is superior actually. Better in the saber duel, but gets unlucky on the knock-back that hits them both from the break in the force battle, and the fight ends without conclusion.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


No. ROTS was a better movie than ROTJ. Yeah, ROTJ had a bad ass lightsaber duel at the end (and the cool emperor sitting in the middle of it and then the lightening blasts), but the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel was arguably its equal. Even forgetting that, Palpatine was deliciously evil in ROTS. Even if Hayden sucked as Anakin, Palpatine and Obi-Wan were wonderfully done.

This would be true if there had been good actors and directing. The bad acting really takes the tension out of the movie. ROTS had the potential of being better, but it wasn't. Han Solo rules all!!

[Dis]

Originally posted by Bkeela
As bad as the Matrix sequels and the new Star Wars films were, you can at least mentally disconnect from the narrative and imagine your own story. They have a visual style that kind of redeems them if you can ignore terrible dialogue, terrible acting, terrible editing, etc.

Aliens 3 was so bad and so bleak, it was just unwatchable. Of course Off-Topic doesn't think so.

I have Matrix Reloaded on DVD, and it is surprisingly good if you turn down the volume and turn up your own custom soundtrack. The Kung-Fu sequences are terrible no matter what, but they can be fast forwarded through.

How does Alien3 end? Only saw it once, and can't remember for the life of me.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't see Palpy cringe... I see him selling the plot. It looks like he's completely in control. Playing the, ooooh, look at me. He purposely turns his face into a scarred mess to gain sympathy and show how evil the Jedi are.

And I think the Palpatine/Yoda duel showed Palpatine as a little bit better than Yoda in force power, but not in saber dueling. I think Yoda is probably much, much more powerful than Windu, so going toe to toe with Yoda is quite a feat.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I don't see Palpy cringe... I see him selling the plot. It looks like he's completely in control. Playing the, ooooh, look at me. He purposely turns his face into a scarred mess to gain sympathy and show how evil the Jedi are.

I'm talking about the exact instant that Mace's hand is removed... Anakin has already chosen, there's no need to sell it... but Palpy still reacting in fear in that moment. Classic "shield my face from the sword" reaction.

Besides, if Palpy was in complete control and can beat all the Jedi himself, he doesn't very well need Anakin, so what's the whole point of the series? (Either way it doesn't make sense though, as Anakin isn't the most powerful Jedi at that point). The kicker is that Anakin comes with the long-term potential to be more powerful than Palpy. And Palpy is going to help him become so? That's not good for business.

Even if you buy that Palpy needs Anakin to take out the Jedi... Anakin is easily dispatched after his fight with Obi Wan. It's the dumbest move possible to save him.

And I think the Palpatine/Yoda duel showed Palpatine as a little bit better than Yoda in force power, but not in saber dueling.

The direct force conflict was definitely a draw. They both pushed and it went "pop" and they both flew backwards.

Palpatine threw more things around during the fight, but bad guys are just like that... if we give credit for his increased volume, we have to take credit for his complete idiocy in letting Yoda concentrate for 15 seconds uninterrupted while he spins up a senate seat.

I think Yoda is probably much, much more powerful than Windu, so going toe to toe with Yoda is quite a feat.

There's really nothing in the film to support such a differentiation.

In the movie you see Yoda and Mace both take on Palpatine, both disarm him in the saber battle portion... Mace isn't disarmed by Palpatine's force, while Yoda is.

(Mace doesn't use any force in the movie that I can recollect, and if you discount his saber battle with Palpatine as a ploy, you have basically nothing to go on.)

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Sarxis
Robocop 3 hasn't been mentioned?

Also, the Star Trek trilogy (if you start with Wrath of Khan) had a weak ending with Voyage Home. I guess we just didn't need the whales, or yet another stint of the Kirk and the gang going into Earth's past.

R3 was bad, but not epic in its badness.

STIV was second only to STII! Yeah the whales thing was ridiculous, but the whole out-of-place-in-20th-century part made the movie fun. I know, isn't it terrible? And don't forget, it really did take about 20 years to decode the matrix for transparent aluminum!