Georgian Nazis!

[Serb]

Originally posted by Patroklos


The Heer and Luftwaffe had elite units as well. Was this due to some special screening process?

Likely. However, SS was not just an ordinary army elite, IT WAS A NAZI PARTY ELITE - a military branch of the nazy party. That's the difference between a regular army elite and the SS.

Some units and organizations no doubt did. I am sure none of Himmlers body guards were draftees.

However, in an organization that numbered 1,500,000+ over the course of a 5 odd year war, does it seem plausible to you that they were all hand picked? Especially knowing what I have told you about the German armed forces recruiting policy? It is a fact the SS accepted direct conscripts from 1940 at least, and indirectly from before the war by absorbing transfered Heer personel.

You can ignore the obvious if it gives you the warm fuzzy, but in the end you need to make sure you don't build a myth in the opposite direction of the ones you decry.

By "elite" I mean real SS-divisions (German, not "Foreign Legions"), so the total number of SS personel should be much lesser than 1.5 million.

Ask yourself Serb, out of all the "elite" Red Army guard divisions were they all ideologically pure?

Well, my grandfather served at 33rd Guard rifle division. But when the war began he was an ordinary conscript and served in non-combat zone. His unit was moved from the Russian Far East to Stalingrad in 1942 to stop the tanks of Manstein.
Russians had a different approach to the "elite", it was experience-based aproach. They didn't create "elite" divisions, but awarded the elite status to regular divisions for their combat successes. So, personel of the Guard division didn't necessary have to be ideologically pure (all they needed to achieve the elite status was to fight very well).

[Patroklos]

Likely.

No, they recieved that label because of performance. The SS divisions were not considered elite by just the Germans (and a lot of the Heer didn't think they were elite), but by the Allied units that faced them as well. In fact most of their elite mystique comes from enemy perception. Something tells me ideological purity and hair/eye color is not why the Allies thought that. Though I bet the Red Army political types probably did a lot of fear mongering/hyping of reputation for the SS.

However, SS was not just an ordinary army elite, IT WAS A NAZI PARTY ELITE - a military branch of the nazy party. That's the difference between a regular army elite and the SS.

No, not really. At the very beginning of the war maybe. But they were infused with significant Heer personel before the war, and from 1940 on the bulk of their growth was from conscription.

Waffen SS
In SS-V Service, 1939: 35,000+
In Waffen-SS Service, 1940: 50,000+
In Waffen-SS Service, 1941: 150,000+
In Waffen-SS Service, 1942: 230,000+
In Waffen-SS Service, 1943: 450,000+
In Waffen-SS Service, 1944: 600,000+
In Waffen-SS Service, 1945: 830,000+

http://www.feldgrau.com/stats.html

From 1940-41 the Waffen SS increased in size 300%. No organization can do that withough relaxing standards, especially ridiculou ones like hair/eye color and ideology, and especially one under the stresses of war. Consription is the only way to do that, which means my the end of 1941 it is not a streach to say the majority of the force was conscripts

And don't forget the SS was in direct competition with the Heer/Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine for personel. By law each got a certain percentage of the available conscripts, but they would fight bitterly over the quality of the individual concripts. Capable, patriotic, nationalistic youth would be at a premium, don't think for a second most didn't go to the Wehrmacht proper (simply because they were 10 times bigger).

And then of course the SS was in competition with itself. The SS had an amazing number of government functions under its control. Who do you think needed and recieved most of the sickos, the Waffen of the Gestapo/concentration camps?

As for them being different from the Heer in actual funtion, not true. They were always under the control of the Heer, and except for an extra infantry battalion looked just like a Heer division in makeup. Sometimes they got favored in equipment, but the Heer had its favorite divisions as well.

By "elite" I mean real SS-divisions (German, not "Foreign Legions"), so the total number of SS personel should be much lesser than 1.5 million.

When I mention consciption in this thread I am always talking about German national consctiption. The various non-German SS units were almost always made up of foreign volunteers.

Well, my grandfather served at 33rd Guard rifle division. But when the war began he was an ordinary conscript and served in non-combat zone. His unit was moved from the Russian Far East to Stalingrad in 1942 to stop the tanks of Manstein.
Russians had a different approach to the "elite", it was experience-based aproach. They didn't create "elite" divisions, but awarded the elite status to regular divisions for their combat successes. So, personel of the Guard division didn't necessary have to be ideologically pure (all they needed to achieve the elite status was to fight very well).

I never knew that about your family Serb, very interesting.

In any case, many German divisions recieved their acolades in the same fashion. The first SS units, despite the critisisms of greater than needed casualties due to fanatisism, recieved their reputations because they did produce results. If the Heer ever recongnized an SS units combat prowess it was through overcoming intense institutional rivalry.

Also, some German elite units like the Panzer Lehr division recieved their elite tag by manning them with hardened veterens. So while a new division, the label was well deserved.

[VetLegion]

It's interesting that I can find more on wikipedia about the SS PazerLehr division or the Grossdeutschland or any other German formation than I can find on Russian units. There isn't an article about 33rd Guard rifle division, for example.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Patroklos
When I mention consciption in this thread I am always talking about German national consctiption. The various non-German SS units were almost always made up of foreign volunteers.

And sometimes the cruelty of foreign SS Divisions would surpass that of most german Waffen SS Divisions (while at the same time being near useless on the battlefield).
. One example would be the SS Division RONA from Southern Russia, which is often called Brigade Kaminski because of its commander
Their only major operation as during the warsaw uprising, where they excelled in looting, raping and murdering.
In one occasion for example they were to take a certain enemy command post at the end of a street. But when they had suppressed most of the enemy fire of the command post instead they would loot a liquor shop that was located at the same street.

On another occasion(where they already were taken out of major operatioins because of their incompetence and only acted as rearguard) they had to guard german artillery divisions.
When suddenly polish partisans attacked they were able to take the german artillery without many losses.
Why? The members of Brigade Kaminski had drunken a lot in the night before and didn´t see any reasons to have guards around the camp. So when the partisans surprisignly attacked Kaminskys men just fled instead of taking up their weapons and fight.

Here an english source on Brigade Kaminski:

http://www.feldgrau.com/kaminski.html/

[Serb]

Originally posted by VetLegion
It's interesting that I can find more on wikipedia about the SS PazerLehr division or the Grossdeutschland or any other German formation than I can find on Russian units.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_Soviet_Union_1917-1945

"However in contrast to Wikipedia's reasonably complete descriptions of U.S., British, and German divisions, only a few Soviet divisions have articles here, mostly because the detailed histories have either not been translated from Russian or have not been fully released from the official archives. (See Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias)".

There isn't an article about 33rd Guard rifle division, for example.

Yes there is no article, only a brief mention:

"33rd Guards Rifle Division (ex 3rd Airborne Corps Jun 1942). Fought at Stalingrad, in the Crimea, at Sevastopol, Riga, Königsberg, and in Kurland. With 2nd Guards Army of the 3rd Belorussian Front May 1945".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_Soviet_Union_1917-1945

[Serb]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


And sometimes the cruelty of foreign SS Divisions would surpass that of most german Waffen SS Divisions (while at the same time being near useless on the battlefield).

True.