Georgian Nazis!

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Patroklos

Where does it say he volunteered? In any case, Nazi chasers/prosecutors have gotten in trouble/lost cases before trying to use guard assignment as proof of war crimes. It is a common known fact that Waffen SS soldiers, and sometimes Heer soldiers, were assigned camp guard duty while recovering form injuries and then sent right back to the front when healed.

Not saying most were not scumbags, but guard duty in and of itself is not proof of anything but guard duty.

I already pointed out where in the article he volunteered.

When asked by a Channel 2 reporter, "Did you see dogs or did you train dogs to attack prisoners who tried to escape?" Henss paused for a while, appeared confused and then said, "Sure, we trained them in Berlin."

And there we see him affirming that he trained dogs to attack prisoners.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Hey Shrapnel and Pat, it says in the article that:

And the Goddamn Waffen-SS made no secret of it's actions and philosophies, so it isn't like he was all "dear me! You say you round up the Jews and kill them? I didn't know that happened when I joined the armed part of the Nazi Apparatus!"

The only appropriate place for a SS volunteer is at the end of a noose. A pity our only option is deportation.

The Waffen SS was a military force.
Although many Waffen SS units commited war crimes they didn´t make adverts kind of: "Join the Waffen SS, travel foreign countries and meet many jews and kill them".

If you volunteered for the Waffen SS it would rather be because they retained some kind of Elite status as a fighting force and not because you thought that this way you could live out your Antisemitism, Sadism or whatever.

It was in this kind different of the SS Totenkopf which guarded the Concentration and Extermination camps (although often a steady transfer took place between SS Totenkopf and Waffen SS)

[Shrapnel12]

I still don't see that he volunteered to guard a concentration camp however. Also when saying he trained dogs to attack prisoners, my assumption is escaping prisoners... oh wait it's not an assumption it's in the article too Attack prisoners doesn't equal torture prisoners.

The only appropriate place for a SS volunteer is at the end of a noose. A pity our only option is deportation.

With such viral bias, you're opinion is thus rendered useless.

[Arrian]

Being "biased" against the SS, how terrible...

-Arrian

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


The Waffen SS was a military force.
Although many Waffen SS units commited war crimes they didn´t make adverts kind of: "Join the Waffen SS, travel foreign countries and meet many jews and kill them".

No, you just had to be True Blue Nazis(until they started getting the pick of Conscripts after halfway through when fighting on the Eats Front meant they had to stop with their primary activity of killing civilians and start fighting people who could shoot back)

If you volunteered for the Waffen SS it would rather be because they retained some kind of Elite status as a fighting force and not because you thought that this way you could live out your Antisemitism, Sadism or whatever.

If you volunteered for the Waffen SS you had to be a Nazi, which by it's nature means you had to be anti-semitic or a Sadist. If you joined just for "kicks" then that meant you were at least complicit in the actions the Nazis took, even if you that wasn't the specific reason. This wasn't a big honking surprise, the SS was the armed apparatus of the Nazi party, and it isn't like it didn't occur to anyone what the Nazis were doing to the undesirables.

It was in this kind different of the SS Totenkopf which guarded the Concentration and Extermination camps (although often a steady transfer took place between SS Totenkopf and Waffen SS)

Annndddd...he still ended up being a prison guard at Dachau.

Claiming complete ignorance of what the camps were for is a bull**** defense - it just shows that he actively ignored the implications of what he saw. Unless he's simply lying about that.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12
I still don't see that he volunteered to guard a concentration camp however.

What a fantastic and irrelevant comment to my response to Patroklos *****in' about not seeing where he volunteered for the SS.

Also when saying he trained dogs to attack prisoners, my assumption is escaping prisoners...

Damn those escaping Prisoners trying to escape death camps!

oh wait it's not an assumption it's in the article too Attack prisoners doesn't equal torture prisoners.

You know, we booted Guardsman out of the service for less. And Volunteering for the SS is as good as signing on to KILL ME SOME JOOS!

With such viral bias, you're opinion is thus rendered useless.

Damn my Bias against the Nazi Party! I guess I can't say anything bad against David Duke because I have a bias against the KKK?

[Riesstiu IV]

Originally posted by Arrian
Being "biased" against the SS, how terrible...

-Arrian

Yeah it is terrible. I've heard a lot of good things about the Chevrolet Super Sport option package.

[Wezil]

I'm having a hard time mustering any sympathy for this guy. I don't care if he is aged and I don't buy his "Who me?" position. Deport him.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Correct, but only accidently on your part. But then again, nobody could just join the Heer during the war.

Semantics. The point was he wasn't some draftee slob who was in a regular military unit, he was a volunteer in a unit which was, at the time, still selective as to who it would take, on the basis of the selectee's ideological fitness, among other things.

One could not join the Leibstandarte any more that someone can join the 3rd Armored Division.

Yes, the Hitler Jugend pedigree and party membership helped qualify him to be accepted.

The SS was a conscript force, and was that way long before the war began.

The Waffen-SS as a whole, yes. The LSSAH not until later when manpower needs dictated. The SS-TV was not a conscript unit at the relevant time.

The Liebstandarte was a conscript formation from no later than when it was increased to Division strength just after the French campaign.

It wasn't designated a division until after the Balkans campaign, and was a division in name only at the time of Barbarossa, as there was no time to reorganize or add manpower and equipment.

Edit - quote tags fixed.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12
I still don't see that he volunteered to guard a concentration camp however.

SS-TV was not a conscripted force. It was considered an elite within the SS, and remained throughout the war as a smallish, ideologically committed force. Not all camp guards were SS-TV, as Patroklos noted, but that change developed late in the war, not in 1942. This ******* served at Buchenwald and Dachau, which were centerpieces of the whole camp system.

It's not like he was some poor slob on limited duty who was stuck guarding some minor backwoods camp in 1944-45 while the real SS-TV guards fled in advance of the Russkie hordes.

[Patroklos]

The only appropriate place for a SS volunteer is at the end of a noose.

I already told you why it is highly suspect that he "volunteered" for the Waffen SS. Unless he was already a member of the another SS organization. Even Hilter Youth were subject to the same legislated recruiting/conscription regulations the rest of the fighting age men in Germany were. So unless the OP wants to elaborate, on the surface it appears they are exaggerating.

I already pointed out where in the article he volunteered.

No, you pointed out where the article in all likelihood falsely characterized his initial joining of the armed forces (which I challenged, not ignored), NOT his volunteering for dog handling duty.

And there we see him affirming that he trained dogs to attack prisoners.

It is not a crime to do that, we do that, every country in the world probably does that. The crime would be to actually use them inappropriately. If all they can do is link him to a dog training school in Berlin I am afraid these prosecutors are going to have a tough time indeed.

(until they started getting the pick of Conscripts after halfway through when fighting on the Eats Front meant they had to stop with their primary activity of killing civilians and start fighting people who could shoot back)

They were getting conscripts long before this guy joined Lonestar.

[quote] If you volunteered for the Waffen SS you had to be a Nazi, which by it's nature means you had to be anti-semitic or a Sadist. quote]

If you were a member of any government apparatus you had to swear an oath to Hitler. I am pretty sure German WWII era firemen were not well know for their war crime participation.

What a fantastic and irrelevant comment to my response to Patroklos *****in' about not seeing where he volunteered for the SS.

I didn't say the article didn't say he didn't volunteer, I said your article is most probably wrong, especially since we are talking about 1941 here.

And you also, wrongly asserted he volunteered for dog handling, which you should admit.

Semantics. The point was he wasn't some draftee slob who was in a regular military unit, he was a volunteer in a unit which was, at the time, still selective as to who it would take, on the basis of the selectee's ideological fitness, among other things.

No MtG. Do you honestly thing that when the 1st SS went from regimental to division stenght (3000 to 20,000+) at the end of 1940-41, they were still all 6' blond haired blue eyed Aryians? Especially since three other SS units made the same transition during the same year and change.

In any case, he is not being deported for being in the Waffen SS or a member of the 1st SS Panzer Division. He is being deported for torturing prisoners with dogs, which the article barely even mentions. I would like to know why it is so fact light before I accuse a man of being one of the worst ****ers history has ever known, sues me.

Yes, the Hitler Jugend pedigree and party membership helped qualify him to be accepted.

Not to any meaningful degree, not in 1941 anyway. Are you going to blame a kid for being sucked into what was the 1930's version of the German Boy Scouts?

The LSSAH not until later when manpower needs dictated. The SS-TV was not a conscript unit at the relevant time.

Wrong about the LSSAH. Right about the SS-TV, though again nobody said anywhere (except lonestar’s ranting) that he volunteered for that, for all we know he was assigned there kicking and screaming.

It wasn't designated a division until after the Balkans campaign, and was a division in name only at the time of Barbarossa, as there was no time to reorganize or add manpower and equipment.

Obviously the transition wasn't instantaneous. In any case, since this guy "volunteered" in 1941, he would not have gotten to the unit until long after Barbarossa.

This ******* served at Buchenwald and Dachau, which were centerpieces of the whole camp system.

Exactly, but that, as I bet you know, is not enough to prosecute him and maybe not enough to even deport him.

If anyone really thinks this guy is a **** ****, which hopefully isn't because of this woefully fact devoid article, you should be as concerned with the lack of detail in the charges and the witch hunt mentality as I am.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Patroklos


I already told you why it is highly suspect that he "volunteered" for the Waffen SS. Unless he was already a member of the another SS organization. Even Hilter Youth were subject to the same legislated recruiting/conscription regulations the rest of the fighting age men in Germany were. So unless the OP wants to elaborate, on the surface it appears they are exaggerating.

So, because he *might* have been a Heer conscript he isn't responsible when he DID volunteer *out* of the Heer to the Waffen SS? Classy defination there.

No, you pointed out where the article in all likelihood falsely characterized his initial joining of the armed forces (which I challenged, not ignored), NOT his volunteering for dog handling duty.

n

A volunteer for the SS is a Volunteer, even if he was intially a Heer conscript.

It is not a crime to do that, we do that, every country in the world probably does that. The crime would be to actually use them inappropriately. If all they can do is link him to a dog training school in Berlin I am afraid these prosecutors are going to have a tough time indeed.

Yeah, poor man used dogs to rip the flesh off of prisoners that had the audacity to try to escape rather than be gassed/worked to death/medically experimented on. Do you really not see the moral difference between training/using dogs for "normal" police duty and for the purposes of furthering the Final Solution? Where is your ethical clarity? Do you have any?

They were getting conscripts long before this guy joined Lonestar.

No, they were getting guys who were originally conscripts but volunteered for the whole SS thing because killing subhumans appealed to them.

I didn't say the article didn't say he didn't volunteer, I said your article is most probably wrong, especially since we are talking about 1941 here.

Wiki claims that the SS didn't introduce conscription until the end of 43, which would seem to dispute that statement.

And you also, wrongly asserted he volunteered for dog handling, which you should admit.

Where? I've been harping on the SS volunteering he did.

Wrong about the LSSAH. Right about the SS-TV, though again nobody said anywhere (except lonestar’s ranting) that he volunteered for that, for all we know he was assigned there kicking and screaming.

Cute. It says so in the article that he volunteered, and you have provided no evidence, none, to disprove that he didn't other than "uh....national manpower pool. Doesn't count."

[Shrapnel12]

Originally posted by Arrian
Being "biased" against the SS, how terrible...

-Arrian

You get an for that. You mistake me if you think I'm taking the side of Nazis. My point is that I simply think that there should be a greater burden of proof other then guilt by association. I admitted once already my ignorance of this situation and I'm trying to get you guys to give me valid information, but all I'm getting is blind hatred, even if justified. Some people want revenge for wrongs done and rightly so, but sometimes our desire for justice or revenge has collateral damage. Our thread author has a credibility problem because of the emotion in his posts.

I suggest you stop assuming I know everything of what you are talking about. Start by showing me that this Waffen SS is what you say. Just because a few people in a unit do bad things doesn't make the whole unit bad. Show me that this was not an ordinary military unit and made especially for the bad guys. This is the first time I've even heard of the Waffen SS. I only know of the SS and indeed they have a bad reputation, so you won't have a hard time convincing me. In fact, it's because these guys are so bad that I'm having a problem. Just like terroists in the ME will kill and force compliance from the general populace, I have to believe that some people in Germany were forced to do things they did in WWII. Nazis are at least as bad as Islamic jihadists.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12


You get an for that. You mistake me if you think I'm taking the side of Nazis. My point is that I simply think that there should be a greater burden of proof other then guilt by association. I admitted once already my ignorance of this situation and I'm trying to get you guys to give me valid information, but all I'm getting is blind hatred, even if justified. Some people want revenge for wrongs done and rightly so, but sometimes our desire for justice or revenge has collateral damage. Our thread author has a credibility problem because of the emotion in his posts.

I suggest you stop assuming I know everything of what you are talking about. Start by showing me that this Waffen SS is what you say. Just because a few people in a unit do bad things doesn't make the whole unit bad. Show me that this was not an ordinary military unit and made especially for the bad guys. This is the first time I've even heard of the Waffen SS. I only know of the SS and indeed they have a bad reputation, so you won't have a hard time convincing me. In fact, it's because these guys are so bad that I'm having a problem. Just like terroists in the ME will kill and force compliance from the general populace, I have to believe that some people in Germany were forced to do things they did in WWII. Nazis are at least as bad as Islamic jihadists.

The SS were the armed part of the Nazi party. Not part of the Army. Which means that *drum roll* you had to literally be a Nazi in order to join, as opposed to being a poor schmuck in the Heer.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Patroklos
No MtG. Do you honestly thing that when the 1st SS went from regimental to division stenght (3000 to 20,000+) at the end of 1940-41, they were still all 6' blond haired blue eyed Aryians? Especially since three other SS units made the same transition during the same year and change.

Most of the actual augmentation of LSSAH to division strength didn't occur until the redesignation to a Panzergrenadier division in 1942. At the time of Barbarossa, in late June, 1941, LSSAH was around 10,800 men. The other SS formations were smaller, so at that, given the available manpower pool, the LSSAH was far from taking the barrel-scrapings needed after Kursk onward.

The article, however, states he volunteered in early 1941, so it's very likely that the LSSAH strength at the time was less than the 10,800 at the time of Barbarossa, especially if he joined prior to the augmentation of the infantry regiment to an effective brigade strength prior to the Balkans campaign in April.

Also, if this guy was the poor, innocent draft-bait you make him out to be, it's highly unlikely that he would have been able to get his ass off the eastern front (unless he had his million reichsmark wound ) to get to the SS-TV.

In any case, he is not being deported for being in the Waffen SS or a member of the 1st SS Panzer Division. He is being deported for torturing prisoners with dogs, which the article barely even mentions. I would like to know why it is so fact light before I accuse a man of being one of the worst ****ers history has ever known, sues me.

No, he is being deported for lying about his Nazi party and SS affiliation on his immigration paperwork. He was never eligible to be here in this country, so **** him.

Wrong about the LSSAH.

Not in early 1941. After the Kiev campaign and in the winter campaign, yes, standards were lessened somewhat, and the SS used conscript manpower, albeit generally the pick of the crop.

Right about the SS-TV, though again nobody said anywhere (except lonestar’s ranting) that he volunteered for that, for all we know he was assigned there kicking and screaming.

Why would he "be assigned kicking and screaming" to an elite organization which only took volunteers who met the necessary political and other criteria for approval? SS-TV never had a shortage of manpower, and never had to conscript members.

The addition of non-SS-TV camp guards with other SS and miscellaneous personnel occurred almost exclusively in two scenarios: secondary camps in occupied territories, and late in the war as SS-TV concentrated on carrying out the mass murder of prisoners or fled in the face of advancing allied forces.

In 1942 at Buchenwald and Dachau, neither of these conditions applied.

Obviously the transition wasn't instantaneous. In any case, since this guy "volunteered" in 1941, he would not have gotten to the unit until long after Barbarossa.

The transition didn't really take place in a meaningful way (with the pick of conscripts) until the LSSAH was rebuilt as a Panzergrenadier division in Normandy in 1942. The article says "early 1941" and Barbarossa was launched on June 22, with LSSAH not seeing any action until August.

Nothing in the timing stated in the article indicates against the ******* being a volunteer.

edit - more quote tags and unquoted stuff