Kids Serving Life

[SlowwHand]

Joe was habitual. Mostly stupid petty things. The last was a carjacking, though.

By comparison,

Man gets 25 years for burning girlfriend

07:18 PM CDT on Monday, July 9, 2007

Associated Press

Still Texas.
I know habitual deserves some time and he's done 7.
He deserved 7. He might deserve 10. Parole hearing is more than 10. 50 seems a little excessive.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


Well according to Robert Epstein's analysis of the problem in his book, The Case Against Adolescence, the way we treat youth in this country (i.e. denying them meaningful, productive roles in society) creates an environment that fosters criminality. It is an issue throughout western society but markedly worse in the US.

Letting them vote earlier is going to keep them from becomming criminals? Letting them drink at an earlier age is going to keep them from committing crimes? Please correct me if I'm wrong in assuming that is what he meant. I don't seem to ever recall myself having a problem staying productive and having a meaningful role even when I was working and had to be driven back and forth to work. It wasn't very important work but it gave me spending money and enough to actually to have bought my own veichle without any help. I couldn't vote, I couldn't drink, and for a couple of years I couldn't drive but I don't ever remember feeling the urge to rob or kill someone. Maybe I was just odd...

[Ben Kenobi]

Well according to Robert Epstein's analysis of the problem in his book, The Case Against Adolescence, the way we treat youth in this country (i.e. denying them meaningful, productive roles in society) creates an environment that fosters criminality. It is an issue throughout western society but markedly worse in the US

I suppose this is why the 'youths' in France aren't arrested for burning cars.

Just because the US has stricter laws doesn't mean that criminality is necessary less in countries where they are more lenient.

[Mr. Harley]

I won't argue about the drive-by shooting - but the abuse cases are pretty standard in my wife's line of work. They pretty much match the criteria, especially the case of Jacob Ind, the one with the flat affect during the trial. That's why I know the Menedez brother's were lying - kids who do this are almost always apprehended at the scene or nearby and almost always admit to it. They don't go on spending sprees.

The abuse had already warped and distorted their lives - think about it, the ultramax prison IS NOT THAT DIFFERENT THAN JACOB IND'S CHILDHOOD. Should he be locked up for life? I don't know.

I do not believe locking up horrendously abused adolescents who kill their "caregivers" (I've lost my vomit smiley) should serve life in prison as a "punishment". I only had my father as the violent/abusive one (when he sold our house after my mother's death he had to patch the hole in the wall he made with my brother's head - I watched it happen) and it distorted my life badly enough. But I had a loving mother, and some of these kids HAD NOBODY.

On the other hand, there is the prevention aspect. Sadly, these individuals are dangerous - no duh. Not only that, due to their abuse if they get into a long term, abusive relationship (much more likely than you or I) they are more likely to snap and eventually repeat. A really effective treatment and prognosis system would better serve all concerned, but given the lack of that - I would not want ANY of these children moving in next door in an apartment complex next door to my little girl when she moves out (next door to me - I have an Ithaca Model 37). In sad case like this there are no good answers, it is too late for that. There are only less lousy or miserable solutions.

[chequita guevara]

As a society, we have determined that kids like the critical facilities to enter into binding contracts, drink alcohol, have sex with adults, drive in cars with more than one person present, etc. But if they commit a crime, they certainly have the critical facilities to serve life.

It's a double standard. Either we adopt the Ozzy standard, and treat kids as adults in all ways (which I think would be bad in many ways and good in some) or we stop sentencing children as adults.

BTW, many other countries have youth crime problems as severe or worse than the U.S. Starting in the 1980s, the U.S. just got insane about crime and decided to cut off its nose to spite its face in the warped belief that tougher prison sentences and tougher prisoners somehow deter crime. My understand is that recidivism got worse in this period; so much for deterrence.

[Sirotnikov]

Letting them vote earlier is going to keep them from becomming criminals? Letting them drink at an earlier age is going to keep them from committing crimes? Please correct me if I'm wrong in assuming that is what he meant

Yes it is. Because it will give them sooner the need to show responsibility.

Responsibility is mostly an acquired trait, that is developed in response to what the society expects of you. Letting kids off the hook and taking responsibility away from them, onto adults, just blocks them from growing up.

Our grandparents, as well as children around the world in developing countries, often have grave responsibilities as soon as 14 years of age.

They adapt and become productive society members.

[OzzyKP]

Exactly Siro.

[DinoDoc]

18 year olds are among the groups with the lowest voter turnout rates. (Sorry Ozzy but it is true) When is this magical aura of responsibility supposed to start preventing crimes?

[b etor]

it will eventually.

[DinoDoc]

Is that based on FBI stats?

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Yes it is. Because it will give them sooner the need to show responsibility.

Responsibility is mostly an acquired trait, that is developed in response to what the society expects of you. Letting kids off the hook and taking responsibility away from them, onto adults, just blocks them from growing up.

Our grandparents, as well as children around the world in developing countries, often have grave responsibilities as soon as 14 years of age.

They adapt and become productive society members.

Just because you did and I did and a lot of other kids may have, doesn't mean everyone will. Many adults are shockingly immature and very irrisponsible. So much for responsbility making them productive members of society. Many teens do just fine without the right to vote or drink or any number of other things without killing or robbing. Giving a person responsibility doesn't magically make them more responsible. They either rise to the occasion or sink.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Japher
or are we just more heartless?
or have better legal systems?
or better policemen?

Or better reporting [and one has to assume they used a particular definition of life sentence, perhaps one that requires it to be stated up front etc.]

[SlowwHand]

Life sentence is less harsh than 99 years.
Time served for release is a percentage. Life is undetermined.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Sprayber


Letting them vote earlier is going to keep them from becomming criminals? Letting them drink at an earlier age is going to keep them from committing crimes? Please correct me if I'm wrong in assuming that is what he meant. I don't seem to ever recall myself having a problem staying productive and having a meaningful role even when I was working and had to be driven back and forth to work. It wasn't very important work but it gave me spending money and enough to actually to have bought my own veichle without any help. I couldn't vote, I couldn't drink, and for a couple of years I couldn't drive but I don't ever remember feeling the urge to rob or kill someone. Maybe I was just odd...

They need responsibility, in other words, being legally responsible for themselves and financiall responsible for themselves.

As long as we have the current educational system, this won't be the case. You are right that other things (alcohol, voting) are meaningless without the financial responsibility (independence) and legal responsibility (being treated as adults as far as the legal system goes, parents not held responsible for you).

JM

[Patroklos]

are meaningless without the financial responsibility

Do any of you remember the kids you went to high school with?

I don't know about you, but I would be hard pressed to find a job that paid enough to pay rent, buy/fuel a car, pay for food and raise a kid at 14 without a high school degree, let alone have the time to work long enough while trying to get an education to qualify for a better job.

Ozzy's financial independence is a receipt for creating an educationless permanent underclass.