Kids Serving Life

[Jon Miller]

highschool can be completed by the time you are 14

as I said, we would have to change our current education system

JM

[Patroklos]

highschool can be completed by the time you are 14

[Sirotnikov]

Just because you did and I did and a lot of other kids may have, doesn't mean everyone will.

Yes it does.

If people were to have not been potty trained, they would continue pooping in diapers.

And then tons of people would say "look, they can't even poop straight until they're 18".

Many adults are shockingly immature and very irrisponsible. So much for responsbility making them productive members of society.

This is a direct result of not being forced to stand on their own and pampered too much when they were children.

I'm a responsible person about everything unless it involves my own stuff. This is a problem that I've developed because my parents used to not trust me enough, so I became used to the fact that I can ignore stuff that needs being done for my sake, cause my folks always did it.

However, when the IDF decided to give me fairly large responsibilities in many fields (including, for instance, making me responsible for arranging the proper national voting process for a very large unit I serve in, or being responsible for different projects) I found it very fulfilling that I grew to fill the part that I was asked to play.

Many teens do just fine without the right to vote or drink or any number of other things without killing or robbing. Giving a person responsibility doesn't magically make them more responsible.

Yes many teens do OK because they can concentrate their energies on lots of stuff.

However giving them more important stuff to do is not going to hurt anyone.

And giving a person responsibility to deal with is the only known way of making the person more responsible. That is exactly why it is better to start with small thing in early age. It makes for better people.

They either rise to the occasion or sink.

The earlier in life the have a chance to sink - the earlier they learn and improve.


let's not threadjack this though.

i'm willing to go to a new thread if it is necessariy.

[Jon Miller]

if you take classes during the summer, it can

just look at the time commitment, you get off about 1/3 the year... so in 8 years you should be able to do 12 years, if you don't have all that extra (unneeded) vacation

JM

[Patroklos]

However, when the IDF decided to give me fairly large responsibilities in many fields (including, for instance, making me responsible for arranging the proper national voting process for a very large unit I serve in, or being responsible for different projects) I found it very fulfilling that I grew to fill the part that I was asked to play.

You were responsible, but not accountable. There is a big difference. And if you think you are "independent" in the military you are missing the point. The idea is to have every crutch available to you when you fall down, the real world isn't like that.

And giving a person responsibility to deal with is the only known way of making the person more responsible. That is exactly why it is better to start with small thing in early age. It makes for better people.

You mean like going out after the street lights come on at ten? Earning an allowance through chores at thirteen? Driving at sixteen? voting at eighteen? Starting with small things and working your way up is how it works now.

if you take classes during the summer, it can

just look at the time commitment, you get off about 1/3 the year... so in 8 years you should be able to do 12 years, if you don't have all that extra (unneeded) vacation

I repeat, do you remember the kids you went to high school with?

If you think you were up to AP Calculus/Engish/Biology at 12 go right ahead, but you are looking back at your youth with rose colored glasses.

And before you do anything like this you will first have to remove the stigma from technically trained only labor, as your 14 year olds are still going to have to get a job to continue their education. Unless we are going to assume their parents are still paying for that, which defeats the whole point.

[Jon Miller]

Umm, my education was payed for by scholarships (And federal grants). My parents didn't do anything (But pay for me to visit at Christmas, and over the summer).

Currently the system is set up to pay for anyone's education (College) whose parents make below a certain amount, since I would have these young adults no longer depedent on parents, then they would be open for the grants and loans that make education available to all... they wouldn't need their parents money

I was definitely capable of higher level education at 12... I was very very bored at the time.

JM

[Patroklos]

Umm, my education was payed for by scholarships (And federal grants). My parents didn't do anything (But pay for me to visit at Christmas, and over the summer).

I did the same, but...

...I repeat, do you remember the kids you went to high school with?

Currently the system is set up to pay for anyone's education (College) whose parents make below a certain amount, since I would have these young adults no longer depedent on parents, then they would be open for the grants and loans that make education available to all... they wouldn't need their parents money

Not so universal as you think (thank God) Why should I pay for someone's college education if they can't qualify for scholarships/loans via academics?

In any case, how is this instilling independance and responsiblity by having someone else pay for their college?

I was definitely capable of higher level education at 12... I was very very bored at the time.

Rose colored glasses probably At 12 people talk about being astronaunts and firemen, how many made it? But we are not talking about you.

I repeat, do you remember the kids you went to high school with?

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Patroklos



Lame, why should I pay for someone's college education if they can't qualify for scholarships/loans via academics?

In any case, how is this instilling independance and responsiblity by having someone else pay for their college?

Because they would have to pay it back some day. It isn't free money. There is a cost associated with it.

And already many many people (the majority) get their education payed for with government support. This would just enable the children of the wealthy to get it, not just the children of the poor.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Patroklos

Rose colored glasses probably At 12 people talk about being astronaunts and firemen, how many made it? But we are not talking about you.

I repeat, do you remember the kids you went to high school with?

I wanted to be a scientist.

And the people who I went to highschool with are creations of the lack of responsibility which is the problem here. If they had to have more responsibility, they would behave in a more grown up manner.

You can go to societies etc for previous 1000s of years to see this, that teenagers can be fully functional adults. Yet now we have this lie that they can't... and the observation that they can't comes from us (the society, not me) treating them like kids.

Jon Miller

[Patroklos]

I had to edit that, those grants/loans are hardly as universal as you think.

In any case if a rich parent decides to spend their own money on sending an academically undeserving child to college what concern of it is yours? What is the point of making money if you can't spend it on what you want? If the college accepts an academically unqualified rich kid that is their perogative. If an academically qualified student gets their tuition paid for without a loan, less stress on the system.

That has no bearing on why you should use my money to send an academically unqualified poor person to college to give you warm fuzzies.

In any case, few people will be getting scolarships/grants/loans of any kind given the levels of education 99% of kids can absorbe at 13/14 years of age.

Did you go to public schools?

[Patroklos]

And the people who I went to highschool with are creations of the lack of responsibility which is the problem here.

So says you. Whats your proof?

And the people who I went to highschool with are creations of the lack of responsibility which is the problem here. If they had to have more responsibility, they would behave in a more grown up manner.

How did the 14 year old girls with kids fair at your HS?

[Jon Miller]

Yep, I went to public schools. The students aren't required to work there, and isntead spend their time goofing off (often with drugs and sex (which leads to pregnancy)) and basically hurting their futures.

This is a symptom of the rottenness of the system. They are being treated like kids, and it makes them miserable and depressed, and the lack of responsibility means that there is little reason to not do drugs/etc. Also, they haven't been given responsibility in other parts of life, so don't know how to practice it in the parts of life that they need to (drugs/etc).

A lot of the people I know had grants/loans. Additionally, if you look at income, and the greater wealth divide we are seeing now, there will be more and more people who go to college because of loans/grants (in our current educational system).

Currently parents are expected to pay for their children through college, and even afterwards. My brother tried to get indepedent, and it is very very hard... I know others who have also tried to do this. You basically have to go to court in order to be considered financially independent below the age of 25.

Academically unqualified people shouldn't be going to college in the first place. Currently, unless their parents are rich, they don't now. I don't see where I suggested that in my suggestion this would be different.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Patroklos


So says you. Whats your proof?



How did the 14 year old girls with kids fair at your HS?

My proof is all the other societies in all of recorded human history where 14 yearolds have fulfilled the adult positions within the community just fine.

14 yearold girls, with kids, who can't support themselves are products of our current system... which treats them like kids.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Basically, the teenagers aren't responsible for themselves, so they aren't responsible for their education, don't care about it, and so don't succeed with it. They would rather spend their time goofing off, and since they aren't responsible for their schooling, they given no reason not to. Yes, it is nice to look to the future, but most adults don't do that either. Most adults do things (like work) so that they can hvae food, shelter, and do the things they want to. If they didn't have to work to have those things, most adults wouldn't choose to.

JM

[Patroklos]

My proof is all the other societies in all of recorded human history where 14 yearolds have fulfilled the adult positions within the community just fine.

Have you not noticed just a tad bit of differnece between standards of living we expect people to achieve so they are not considered a failure? The education required for most jobs in America vice 100 years ago? The day to day skills modern society requires to interact effectively?

14 yearold girls, with kids, who can't support themselves are products of our current system... which treats them like kids.

I thought if we gave them responsibility then everything would be okay?

Please point to the system that didn't treat them like children and had our standard of living.

I'll give you any 14 year old can till the fields the same as me any day of the week. And if things go bad this season, that same 14 year old could probably hack and slash the hell out of the villages next door the same as me as we raid them of their winter storeholds. They we would go back to our mud huts and die of pnemonia. Oh the good ol days

Times have changed.