Teh Confederacy is persecuted!

[Arrian]

The principle of State's Rights is what is represented by the Confederate Flag

Heh. Ok.

It is one of the things represented by the flag, sure. Given all the other negative things associated with that flag, however, one would think a person could come up with a better way to display their love of states rights. But again, it's your choice.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

the CSA battle flag (again note that during the ACW that was NOT the CSA flag, the stars and bars were) represented the CSA as a state, and not any one political principle. The CSA stood for states rights, at least in theory (though a close reading of ACW history will show that the CSA moved far toward centralization during the war, a contradiction noted at the time) AND for the defense of Slavery, and for free trade, AND for quite a few other things. Clearly States Rights and Slavery were the most widely publicized principles in CSA ideology. Arguably the former was at least in part valued as a defense for the latter, but one can never generalize to each individual, and supporters of the CSA encompassed millions of people.

As a post-war symbol, the battle flag took on many meanings, which included southern pride, AND defense of the old racial status quo, and, especially recently, of a more generalized defiance. These havent always been seperate.

When a West Virginia hill billy rides a truck with the flag, I can well understand that race is not the main thing on his mind (though I can also see considerable historical irony) But when a black sees the CSA flag as a racist symbol, theres plenty of historical resonance to justify that view too.


Is the Swastika a symbol of antisemitism? Not in a Hindu temple in India, its not. In europe, though, it is. Symbols can have multiple meanings, all of which are "true"

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Arrian


Heh. Ok.

It is one of the things represented by the flag, sure. Given all the other negative things associated with that flag, however, one would think a person could come up with a better way to display their love of states rights. But again, it's your choice.

-Arrian

In general, the negative connotations are there because of people looking for negative symbols for the South.

Similarly, many people use the US flag as a symbol of aggression and oppression in their protests. I have hardly heard it suggested that Americans quit waiving their flag simply because some people assign incorrect feelings to it.

While your post was good intentioned I'm sure, it serves once again to show the bias against anything Southern

[Patroklos]

While your post was good intentioned I'm sure, it serves once again to show the bias against anything Southern

Nah, I bet he likes BBQ sauce

[Arrian]

In general, the negative connotations are there because of people looking for negative symbols for the South.

M'kay.

You're delusional about that.

One key difference between the flags you're comparing, incidently, is that the USA still exists. The CSA is, thankfully, in the dustbin of history. The USA has some negatives on its record, no doubt, but as I'm sure you agree it's balanced by a lot of positives. The CSA, on the other hand, has really nothing to recommend it.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

The USA has been around for 230 years. Its flag is the flag of FDR AND Ronald Reagan. Of James Buchanan, AND Lincoln. Of gilded age corruption AND of Theodore Roosevelt. Of Yankees AND of southerners. Of fighting in Viet Nam, and liberation at Normandy.

The CSA only existed for 4 years. It had one President. Though it had free elections, it didnt in that short time evolve a competitive party system. Ergo, there simply isnt the diversity of associations with the CSA itself. Its use as a symbol with various meanings post ACW, while interesting, hardly gives it the variety of meanings taken on by the USA flag.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Arrian


M'kay.

You're delusional about that.

Well...not hardly. Continue on in Yankee propogandaland.

Originally posted by Arrian

One key difference between the flags you're comparing, incidently, is that the USA still exists.

Yes...to the victor goes the right to write the history. The South gets this one. It the north that believes the propoganda

Originally posted by Arrian
The CSA is, thankfully, in the dustbin of history.

Only if you are a huge fan of federalism. If you are a proponent of individual freedom, then there is nothing to be thankful for.

Originally posted by Arrian
The USA has some negatives on its record, no doubt, but as I'm sure you agree it's balanced by a lot of positives. The CSA, on the other hand, has really nothing to recommend it.

All contries have negatives and positives. The South had many positives as well. To say otherwise is to totally show an ignorance of the ideals being expressed.

The reference was also to the flags or symbols of each country and how ridiculous it is to associate the entire symbol to one particular stance. Please don't forget that the good ole stars and stripes once stood for slavery just as much as the Stars and Bars. The overwhelming misconception of many northerners that the South would have never evolved beyond its support of slavery, or that it is an area that would still support slavery, is simply ridiculous. So to is the idea that its flag stands for racism.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Nah, I bet he likes BBQ sauce

I like grits, the phrase "y'all", the general tolerance expressed (at least by "quality Southerners") toward Jews, the many great writers, the notions of honor and courage and persistence through hard times, so much associated with the South.


I just dont associate all those positive things with the CSA battle flag. Ive known too many Southerners who had nothing in particular to do with the CSA battle flag, why would I associate it with them?

[Arrian]

Note that I said "the CSA" NOT "The South." They're not the same thing. The South has lots of things to recommend it. The CSA did not.

Please don't forget that the good ole stars and stripes once stood for slavery just as much as the Stars and Bars.

I know my history, man. I'm aware of that very basic fact. The difference, however, is that the USA (slowly, painfully) abolished slavery and then went through the civil rights movement. The CSA, meanwhile, had slavery right up until the USA took it away at gunpoint. Again, the South =! CSA. The South has moved on (or I wish it would). The CSA is frozen in time in 1865. Flying its (battle) flag... whatever floats your boat, I guess.

As for the question of slavery in the CSA had they attained their independence... it's an unknown. It's likely that the CSA would've eventually abolished slavery, but of course that's all hypothetical.

If you're going to deny a connection between racism and the Confed battle flag, I'm going to have to use the word delusional again...

-Arrian

[PLATO]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Its use as a symbol with various meanings post ACW, while interesting, hardly gives it the variety of meanings taken on by the USA flag.

The fact remains that it was a symbol for a variety of meanings during the existence of the CSA as well. My point was not that it carried the same meaning or the same length of existence as the US flag. My point was that denegrating a symbol over one meaning is just as ridiculous for the Confederate Flag as it is for the US flag.

[Patroklos]

I just dont associate all those positive things with the CSA battle flag. Ive known too many Southerners who had nothing in particular to do with the CSA battle flag, why would I associate it with them?

Well, I agree that there are differences with those who display it in various ways. I am not so much a fan of people who wear it on their sleeve. Bumper stickers, the flag in tatters on the flag pole because it has been left up there for years. I think it is disingenuous, just like I don't like seeing the stars and stripes displayed that way. Just like I don't like faith being displayed that way.

I have a small framed picture of the First/Second/Third national flags and the Battle Flag displayed on a table in my living room withe the phrase "Twil live in song and story, though its folds are in the dust." Which is telling as to what I think it is. It represents history and culture, not a political entity.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by PLATO

Yes...to the victor goes the right to write the history. The South gets this one. It the north that believes the propoganda

to the victor goes another 140 years of history and the chance to make new associations. BTW during that 140 years no small number of Southern men fought and died under the Stars and Stripes, its hardly a "northern" symbol.

Only if you are a huge fan of federalism. If you are a proponent of individual freedom, then there is nothing to be thankful for.

Leaving aside the slavery question, that is entirely naive. The CSA had conscription, and was generally quite as intolerant of dissent as the North. Google on East Tennessee Unionists. Or just go see "Cold Mountain"

Originally posted by Arrian
The USA has some negatives on its record, no doubt, but as I'm sure you agree it's balanced by a lot of positives. The CSA, on the other hand, has really nothing to recommend it.

All contries have negatives and positives. The South had many positives as well. To say otherwise is to totally show an ignorance of the ideals being expressed.

The South != the CSA

The reference was also to the flags or symbols of each country and how ridiculous it is to associate the entire symbol to one particular stance. Please don't forget that the good ole stars and stripes once stood for slavery just as much as the Stars and Bars. The overwhelming misconception of many northerners that the South would have never evolved beyond its support of slavery,

Ive read turtledove, and love alt history. For all we know the South might have gone commie. The CSA battleflags associations, however, are with those of the state it symbolized, and of the movements that later adopted it, and not of historical whatifs.

or that it is an area that would still support slavery, is simply ridiculous. So to is the idea that its flag stands for racism.

It was added to the state flags of several southern states at a time of defiance of civil rights laws. That happened at the same time as the 100th anniversary of the ACW, and IIUC some claim it was really about the history of the ACW. One can believe that or not.

[Arrian]

RE: CSA and state's rights.... West Virginia.

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

Oh yeah, I break it out at SCC football games, and any other Southern sports event to.

Obviously that is because I support the KKK, not Southern tailgate culture.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Arrian
Note that I said "the CSA" NOT "The South." They're not the same thing. The South has lots of things to recommend it. The CSA did not.



I know my history, man. I'm aware of that very basic fact. The difference, however, is that the USA (slowly, painfully) abolished slavery and then went through the civil rights movement. The CSA, meanwhile, had slavery right up until the USA took it away at gunpoint. Again, the South =! CSA. The South has moved on (or I wish it would). The CSA is frozen in time in 1865. Flying its (battle) flag... whatever floats your boat, I guess.

-Arrian

Haha! Interestingly enough, the Emancipation Proclamation freed the slaves in the South in 1863. Slavery continued in the north until the passage of the 13th amendment in late 1865.

And yes...the South has moved on. It has also retained the concept of State's Rights. In not accepting the doctrine of federalism, the South continues to push a very valid debate. Northerners are simply soo caught up on being biased against anything Southern that they cannot objectively look at this as a legitimate debate. When the South raises any point, northerners are very quick to cover their ears and shout "Slavery!"

The flag of the South is really the flag of the ideal of personal freedom. The sad part is that the northern propoganda machine and the federalist who are scared of the debate are working hard to turn it into a symbol of intolerence.