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Unprovoked? 
-Arrian
-Arrian
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grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood. -
Originally posted by Arrian
Though it would've been better had the US done those things, the attack is still 100% on Israel, sorry. The ship was in international waters, was marked, and looked nothing like a warship.
-Arrian
The point is that mistakes were made by both sides."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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If they have intell assets in a place where the US is engaging in combat operations, and one of their assets gets killed by mistake, I doubt very much that they would come screaming conspiracy.Originally posted by DinoDoc
Does Israel tell us where their intelligence assets are?
The Liberty was hardly like a spy operating undercover. If it was truely covert, then the whole case against Israel falls apart - the case is based on the Liberty NOT being covert. If youre going to have an OVERT asset, operating in a war zone, it would make sense to tell where it is."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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The mistake the US made was recalling the fighters launched to protect the Liberty.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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Check your history. Unless that is you're used to getting it fed by people like Michael Oren...Originally posted by Arrian
Unprovoked?
-Arrian
Maybe then you'll realise who was provoking who.Comment
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Yes, the US didn't shoot your planes out of the sky."Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."Comment
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well, it looks like someone else has gotten the art of the ad hominem down pat."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Arrian, you dont think it was a mistake to not have a naval liason with the Israelis?Originally posted by Arrian
The mistake the US made was recalling the fighters launched to protect the Liberty.
-Arrian"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Yes, if the IDF is that specialized, when they had so few airframes to begin with, they are stupid.Hard to beleive that a pilot whose task was chasing Egyptian subs, couldnt misidentify a surface ship?"The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.Comment
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No, I don't get my history from Michael Oren.Originally posted by MOBIUS
Check your history. Unless that is you're used to getting it fed by people like Michael Oren...
Maybe then you'll realise who was provoking who.
1967 was hardly unprovoked Israel aggression. edit: unless, of course, you mean that it's existance is "provocation."
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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His task, not his general specialization.Originally posted by Patroklos
Yes, if the IDF is that specialized, when they had so few airframes to begin with, they are stupid.
He was out looking for subs, not for surface ships, which is why THAT pilot merely radioed in a report and did not attack the Liberty. The Liberty was attacked AFTER there was an explosion in El Arish, which was thought to have been due to Egyptian naval gunfire."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Although I'm sure you'll happily admit that the mistakes on the Israelis' part was far, far greater than the mistakes of the Americans.Originally posted by lord of the mark
The point is that mistakes were made by both sides.Comment
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So he reported an unarmed auxillery vessel, and they sent warplanes? I can understand a recon guy mixing a group 2 auxillary with a group 2 merchant (common back then), but a warship? No visible weaponry? How many merchans did you guys sink during the war?His task, not his general specialization.
He was out looking for subs, not for surface ships, which is why THAT pilot merely radioed in a report and did not attack the Liberty. The Liberty was attacked AFTER there was an explosion in El Arish, which was thought to have been due to Egyptian naval gunfire.
Are your guys not supposed to get visual or ELINT ID before attacking something? We sure as hell do."The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.Comment
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Im not sure how to quantify mistakes, and that does get to issues of overall interpretation.Originally posted by Gibsie
Although I'm sure you'll happily admit that the mistakes on the Israelis' part was far, far greater than the mistakes of the Americans.
What question are we asking?
"Were the number of Israeli mistakes so much greater than the American mistakes, that Israel would be liable for damages in a civil law suit?"
or
"Were the number of Israel mistakes so great as to call into question that this was a tragic accident"
I will give you the former, yes. Its the latter that I find unconvincing. In addressing the latter the role of the US mistakes IS quite relevant.
Again, look at how common friendly fire is even in conditions when all units are members of the same military and theoretically their commands have access to everyones location. Now add in that the IDF was NOT kept informed by the USN of the Libertys position, and the unusual communication channels, etc, etc.
Theres such a thing as an accident waiting to happen."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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