Israel's Attack on the USS Liberty, Revisited

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Out of interest, was anyone in the IDF relieved of command for shear incompetence after this attack? If we accept the theory that is what it was (I refuse to dignify Skloww's stupid we brought it on ourselves theory) someone should have been punished.

It was quite a complex incident - I recommend reading Michael Oren for a full discussion.

[Barnabas]

Didnt the USA declare war on Spain for much less ? ( an american ship exploding in the harbour of La Habana due to unknown reasons?)

[Patroklos]

BB>AUX

[Arrian]

It strains credulity to believe this was simply a mistake. We've been over this, at length, here at 'poly before.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
It strains credulity to believe this was simply a mistake. We've been over this, at length, here at 'poly before.

-Arrian

Have you read Michael Oren on it? It wasnt a simple mistake(yes I know you said "simply a mistake" not "a simple mistake"), it was a confluence of factors.

[Arrian]

I'm sure it wasn't simple, mistake or no.

No, I've not read Oren. I've not been reading anything lately. Something I shall have to remedy.

edit: an article written by Oren in 2000 re: the Liberty is available online:

http://azure.org.il/magazine/magazine.asp?id=143

Come to think of it, I probably read this the last time we did a big Liberty thread.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Making two passes at 3,000 feet, formation commander Capt. Spector (IDF records do not provide pilots’ first names) reckoned that the ship was a “Z” or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy. Spector then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. The answer was “Negative.” Nor were there any distinguishing marks other than some “black letters” painted on the hull.

...


After the first strike, the visibility that had enabled crewmen to identify IAF reconnaissance craft earlier in the day was lost to the smoke of battle. One of the Israeli pilots, curious as to why the vessel had not returned fire, made a final pass at ninety feet. “I see no flag,” he told headquarters. “But there are markings on the hull--Charlie-Tango-Romeo-five.”25

Hard to believe. Which is why, despite a fair amount of evidence that it was a mistake, the belief lingers that it was deliberate.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
It strains credulity to believe this was simply a mistake. We've been over this, at length, here at 'poly before.

-Arrian

as Oren points out, if they knew it was an unarmed, isolated ship, and they wanted to sink it, they could have used a sub, they didnt need to attack it from the air, openly implicating themselves.

If there are problems with the story that it was done by mistake, there are equal or greater holes in the theory that it was done deliberately.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian


Hard to believe. Which is why, despite a fair amount of evidence that it was a mistake, the belief lingers that it was deliberate.

-Arrian

Hard to beleive that a pilot whose task was chasing Egyptian subs, couldnt misidentify a surface ship?

Or that a flag might not sometimes not be visible, in the wind?

Or that Eqyptian ships didnt sometimes attempt to look like western ships?

Did you read how Rabin, when he heard there were non-Arabic markings, paniced that they might have hit a Soviet ship? Or was that all part of an Israeli disinfo campaign?

So, was the pilot of the float plane from the Japanese cruiser Tone, who misidentified an aircraft carrier as a cruiser,IIRC, despite having specifically been sent to find carriers, thus leading to the "Six Minutes at Midway" also part of the Zionist Conspiracy?

[Arrian]

I read the whole thing, LotM.

Of course, an Israeli-American historian has every reason to interpret the evidence in such a way as to find it was a tragic mistake (or rather a series of them).

There was definitely negligence involved, at the very least, and some court martials should have been opened.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
I read the whole thing, LotM.

Of course, an Israeli-American historian has every reason to interpret the evidence in such a way as to find it was a tragic mistake (or rather a series of them).

-Arrian

I am speaking to the evidence he presents. I dont see how his nationality is relevant to that.

And he presented lots of evidence in his book on the 6 day war that was not favorable to the Israeli POV.

[DinoDoc]

LotM: Is everyone who finds that the mistake scenario strains credulity anti-semetic? If not, what's with all the Zionist Conspiracy clap-trap?

[Ecthy]

The link I posted has nothing to do with zionist conspiracies.

[Arrian]

Oh please His nationality is certainly potentially relevant. Whether it really impacted his analysis is unknown (unknowable), but come on now.

I rather doubt he has a deliberate bias. I'm saying that, when in doubt, he's probably going to choose "accident" over any other explanation. The alternative is horrifying.

-Arrian

[PLATO]

I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara

It's not about patriotism, it's about an unprovoked attack, i.e., murder-chegitz guevara


So, is this your way of coming out of the closet on supporting Israel?



******

Frankly, it is my feeling that the Israeli's were afraid we would know what they were upto in the Golan, and that we would attempt to limit the conflict by letting the cat out of the bag. They did what they felt like they had to in order to secure their victory. I think it sucks that they attacked a U.S. Warship in international waters and that they should have paid a steep price for doing it. It is hard to magine a military response as our "ally" was in the middle of a major war. A very hard position for us. Clearly, at the very least, a stern and meaingful warning should have been given as well as reparations demanded. The warning part we may never know, but it looks as if they have paid reparations.

A difficult time between allies for sure, but it was now over 40 years ago. During all that time not one similar incident...perhaps they developed the proper protocols for these things.

edit: grammer fix.