Israel's Attack on the USS Liberty, Revisited

[Patroklos]

1. Im not sure how important it is, but you seemed to think it was important previously.

I think diliberatly making the decision to kill something that looked, moved, and acted like something civilian is pretty damn important.

I dont know what it looked like to them, or how good they were.

Obviously not very good, as their incompetance shows. If they theselves were under attack, yeah mistakes happen. If they didn't have hours to look, relook, and re re look, yeah mistakes happen. If it was the middle of the night, yeah mistakes happen. If there were not infinity overflys at 3000 or less feet, yeah mistakes happen.

None of those are th case here.

But no, they didnt ID it. Once again, there were no merchies there. There was not supposed to be anything there other than Egyptian or Israeli naval vessels.

Not SUPPOSED to be. Well, now we see what happens when you tell your guys to kill everything they see. Does that not sound criminal to you?

And if the TPs had been caught by the "destroyer" they would have been blown out of the water.

I doubt it, since apparently they can see for 22nm and go just as fast as DD.

I dont know, but Im not persuaded by folks who wont even read the relevant history arguing the other way, and whose knowledge of the history of the six day war allows them to make assertions about crowded sea lanes that are 100% wrong.

Sorry LotM, I haven't been able to leave work, buy a probably ****ty pop history book (which we are some how assuming is superior to what I have already read why?) and read it in the three hours we have been discussing this.

Not that I was 100% wrong about anything, but so far you have been 100% about everything maritime in this thread.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Does Israel tell us where their intelligence assets are?

Btw, what's with all the spying on Israel?

I thought allies aren't meant to spy on allies...

[Patroklos]

It also means you don't attack each other...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos

Sorry LotM, I haven't been able to leave work, buy a probably ****ty pop history book

Er, no.


This is not only the best book so far written on the Six Day War, it is likely to remain the best."--Geoffry Wheatcroft, Washington Post Book World

"The most comprehensive chronicle of this crucial turning point in contemporary Middle East history.... An elegantly detailed, often riveting account."--Suzy Hansen, Chicago Sun-Times

"The timing, alas, is perfect. Michael Oren's definitive history of the 1967 Arab-Israeli war and its aftermath is sure to be the must-read in the White House this month."--New York Magazine

"There have been many books written on the Six Day War, none breaks new ground like this magnificent book does."--Fouad Ajami, NPR

"An excellent new history of the 1967 war."--David Remnick, The New Yorker

"In Michael Oren's richly detailed and lucid account, the familiar story is thrilling once again.... What makes this book important is the breadth and depth of the research...he uses many Arab memoirs and accounts, giving the book a balanced tone and offering fascinating new details. 'Six Days of War,' coming soon after Israel--on a 30 year declassification rule--opened its archies on 1967, is a powerful rendering of what has turned out to be a world-historical event."--Gary J. Bass, The New York Times Book Review

"This is a masterly book.... With a remarkably assured style, Oren elucidates nearly every aspect of the conflict.... In writing his strategic chronicle, Oren has also drawn the most penetrating and subtle assessment of the Israeli mind that I've encountered.... Oren's will remain the authoritative chronicle of the war. His achievement as a writer and a historian is awesome."--Ben Schwarz, The Atlantic Monthly

"In addition to being a highly readable, even gripping account of the 1967 conflict, Mr. Oren's 'Six Days of War' is also a powerful illustration of the way history mixes basic forces with the accidental and the improvisational.... Provides fabulous richness of detail, including fly-on-the-wall accounts of the words and actions of many of the principal actors in places like Moscow and Washington, Damascus, Tel Aviv, and Cairo.... He has woven a seamless narrative out of a staggering variety of diplomatic and military strands.... Tragedy is character, as the Greeks understood, and Mr. Oren's masterly account shows how apt that insight is to the tragedy-afflicted Middle East, past and present."--Richard Bernstein, The New York Times

"A first-rate new account of the conflict."--Michael Kelly, Washington Post

"A magisterial work that is not only riveting reading, but also likely to become the standard work on the war that shaped the contemporary Middle East."--Jack Fischel, Philadelphia Inquirer

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos

Not SUPPOSED to be. Well, now we see what happens when you tell your guys to kill everything they see. Does that not sound criminal to you?

Not in a war zone, where there were not supposed to be any merchies, and where, in fact, there WERE no merchies.

[Sirotnikov]

you guys really over estimate the know-how and technical knowledge of Israeli pilots or Israeli shipmen, or Israeli soldiers in general.

I would bet all for non specialist soldiers having very poor ideas of how to identify ships and stuff. Most soldiers in Israel are not career soldiers and their training is short and crappy.

The phrase "well anyone with a proper army background can see that XXXX" does not catch well for Israeli soldiers.

We're good willing, and rely on our wits, but we're very very unprofessional.

[Patroklos]

So it is not even a book about the Liberty, but the Six day war period.?Well guess what LotM, we are not talking about the 6 day war, we are talking about a singular event within it. So how much of Oren's book is about anything relevant to this thread, vice, the two books I have read that were about nothing but the Liberty?

Not that your reviews even mention his work on the Liberty incident. And I thought you said he had new info, all these documents were declassified in 1997

Really man, try a little bit.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos
So it is not even a book about the Liberty, but the Six day war period.?Well guess what LotM, we are not talking about the 6 day war, we are talking about a singular event within it. So how much of Oren's book is about anything relevant to this thread, vice, the two books I have read that were about nothing but the Liberty?

Yup its about the 6 day war. I think there was a chapter on the Liberty.

I think seeing it in the context of the entire war is important. I think a number of disagreements have related to the presence or absence of the context of the war.

[lord of the mark]

would you be so kind as to name the books youve read on the subject?

[Patroklos]

Not in a war zone, where there were not supposed to be any merchies, and where, in fact, there WERE no merchies.

Where does anything you have posted say there were no merchant in the area?

Let me break this down for you. What does the Liberty look like (besides a DD if your a ****ing stupid IDF pilot or braindead SWO)? A merchant ship! What is the only thing that would distiguish it from a merchant ship? Markings! Did the IDF see any markings before deciding to kill it? NO! So in the best case scenario, assuming they are not cirminally incompetent as you maintain, what did the IDF think they were doing? killing a civilian merchant ship!

AKA muder.

So it is criminally incompetant or just criminal? Which do you prefer?

[Patroklos]

would you be so kind as to name the books youve read on the subject?

The USN case study text from college, whatever the designation of that is, and if you CANTRAC the Citadel library whatever you come up with there. Had to write a paper on in in 2002.

I think seeing it in the context of the entire war is important. I think a number of disagreements have related to the presence or absence of the context of the war.

I am gettin a little zealous after reading my last few posts. Don't take it personal and I will calm myself down, am enjoying discussing this with you

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Where does anything you have posted say there were no merchant in the area?

Let me break this down for you. What does the Liberty look like (besides a DD if your a ****ing stupid IDF pilot or braindead SWO)? A merchant ship! What is the only thing that would distiguish it from a merchant ship? Markings! Did the IDF see any markings before deciding to kill it? NO! So in the best case scenario, assuming they are not cirminally incompetent as you maintain, what did the IDF think they were doing? killing a civilian merchant ship!

AKA muder.

So it is criminally incompetant or just criminal? Which do you prefer?

they say they though it was destroyer, they actually hit a spy ship. ergo they are guilty of hitting a merchie.

I must say, youve lost me.

[Patroklos]

they say they though it was destroyer

If they really think they hit a destroyer after all of the obvious reasons only an idiot could think this, they are are criminally incompetent. You say this is not so.

they actually hit a spy ship.

Or they knew it was a spy ship and hit it anyways, which you deny.

ergo they are guilty of hitting a merchie.

The only logical conclusion given the options you have ruled out.

They killed something that looked and acted like a civilian ship. On Purpose.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
they say they though it was destroyer,

Everything I've read on the subject says that they didn't think it was a destroyer. Far from it actually. Where do you read otherwise?

[SpencerH]

So what's new here? Anyone with an inkling of experience in this area understands that the Israeli's knew it was an american ship.

As for why the israelis carried out the attack and why it was covered up, the answers are just pure speculation.