Toronto is ridiculously stupid

[joncha]

Me too.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by DanS
Did I tell you about the last time I visited LV? I thought I would try to take the monorail at Bally's, but it took about 20 minutes to walk to the station from the strip, and they wanted $5 for a trip.

Compare to Washington Metrorail subway (underground), which goes for $1.35 per trip.

The Las Vegas monorail is an embarrassment. It's the perfect example of how not to build a monorail.


BTW: Once upon a time, Disneyland offered to build a monorail system for L.A. at Disney's expense. All Disney wanted from L.A. were the right-of-ways and the right to operate the system. L.A. turned the offer down.

[MOBIUS]

Bump!

Feel like laughing at Tingkai again...

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Boys, you're getting trashed here. Fact is Toronto has one of the world's best transit systems and that's one of the reasons Toronto is considered one of the most livable cities in the world.

If you're going to try to trash Toronto, you'll have to try much harder because so far your barbs are rather dull. None of them stand up.

We're on the fourth page and you are the only one with this opinion thus far.

Those of us that know the city know better.

Hint - When you have to continually tell yourself you're a "world class city", you probably aren't.

[Tingkai]

If you go into Toronto expecting to hate it, you will. If you refuse to look around and see what's there, it'll seem dead. If you don't like big cities, you won't like Toronto.

Or you can approach the city with an open mind and discover the small things that make life enjoyable, like:

- Listen to some blues at Jeff Healy's place;
- See a new band at the Cameron House;
- Go to any of the dozens of clubs with live music;
- Have a walnut beer at the Amsterdam, if they still make it;
- Walk around Kensington Market and eat a Jamaican beef patty;
- Go to the St. Lawrence Market and have a peameal bacon sandwich;
- Try some regional cuisine at places like Little Italy on Bathurst and College, in any of the Chinatowns like the one on Spadina, Greek food on the Danforth, Indian food on Gerard and Coxwell, East European food around Roncesville;
- Toronto has professional hockey, basketball, baseball, Canadian football, soceer so go see a game;
- During the summer, go to the Ex, watch the Caribanna parade, go sailing on the lake, or ride a bike from Wilket Creek Gardens to downtown;
- in the winter, go skating at city hall or Grenadier pond;
- Check out the live theater; Toronto isn't New York or London, but there are still a lot of interesting shows; or
- Just go for a walk and see what's up in different neighborhoods like the Annex, the beaches and places I mentioned above; and
- of course there's the usual tourist stuff.

In other words, the city is what you make of it.

[Asher]

- in the winter, go skating at city hall or Grenadier pond;

Skipped most of your stuff...

Grenadier pond has big NO SKATING signs all over it.

And the Toronto Marlies are drawing less people than a Calgary Hitmen game, despite being the Leafs farm team and in a huge metropolitan area. What a cultureless city.

Also, your water sucks:

Copper: Toronto: 0.018ppm; Calgary: 0.001ppm (18x higher in Toronto)
Lead: Toronto: 0.013ppm; Calgary: 0.0005ppm (26x higher in Toronto)

Your list sounds like every other city on the planet

[Tingkai]

Now, if you're talking about mass transit issue in this thread, the thing people seem to be ignoring is that there are always trade offs in everything.

The benefit of buses is that they're maneuverable, but the longer the bus, the less maneuverable it becomes, particularly for turns. That's why regular buses are typically 40 feet long and no bigger.

To make them longer, they have to be an articulated, or bendy, bus, but again, there is a maximum length before they become unwieldy. After all, these buses have to operate in urban areas, not the open highway. This is why articulated buses, like the ones used in San Fran, Toronto or Vancouver are typically not longer than 60 feet long.

And of course, the bigger the bus, the bigger the engine needed and that affects fuel economy.

These constraints are true around the world.

Asher argues, just use electric buses, but the same problems in terms of length and maneuverability apply. The benefit of electric buses is no direct pollution, but the trade off is the infrastructure required, e.g. the overhead power lines.

Meanwhile, less energy is needed to move a rail vehicle which is why street cars can be bigger than buses, yet still cheaper to operate. The trade off is the infrastructure required, which can only be justified in denser urban areas.

But when it comes to moving large numbers of people, steetcars can carry more people per vehicle using less energy compared to buses. This is why streetcars are used in cities around the world like Berlin and Hong Kong.

So the answer to Asher's original question is the reason why streetcars are used in downtown Toronto is because on the routes they are used, the streetcars are efficient.

[Tingkai]

And here's a pic of those dangerous streetcar tracks. Yup, a real hazard.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
Skipped most of your stuff...

Yeah, I can see it now. 30 years from now, you'll still be living in Toronto, knowing nothing about the city, and complaining.

That's your choice, but why do it?

I meet people like you in Hong Kong who constantly ***** about how awful the people are and how the city sucks.

I really don't know why anyone would live in a place they don't like?

And as for the list sounding like every city in the planet, sorry buddy, a lot of those options are not available in a lot of cities. You can't see an MLB or an NBA game in Calgary and Calgary doesn't have the cultural diversity of Toronto. In fact few cities do.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
To make them longer, they have to be an articulated, or bendy, bus, but again, there is a maximum length before they become unwieldy. After all, these buses have to operate in urban areas, not the open highway. This is why articulated buses, like the ones used in San Fran, Toronto or Vancouver are typically not longer than 60 feet long.

The exact same thing is true with streetcars. Toronto's turns are actually sharper than normal also.

And of course, the bigger the bus, the bigger the engine needed and that affects fuel economy.

These constraints are true around the world.

And also true for streetcars.

Asher argues, just use electric buses, but the same problems in terms of length and maneuverability apply. The benefit of electric buses is no direct pollution, but the trade off is the infrastructure required, e.g. the overhead power lines.

Which are already in place in Toronto and still cheaper than both overhead power + rails.

Meanwhile, less energy is needed to move a rail vehicle which is why street cars can be bigger than buses, yet still cheaper to operate.

Street cars require far more initial cost, far more customization cost (custom gauges), far more maintenance cost (tracks), and far more operating costs (jams, queues). Do not even try this "cheaper to operate" route. The $7.5M per streetcar figure should be enough to dissuade that.

But when it comes to moving large numbers of people, steetcars can carry more people per vehicle using less energy compared to buses.

The less energy thing may be true but it won't be substantial, especially considering the massive costs associated with streetcars in general.

This is why streetcars are used in cities around the world like Berlin and Hong Kong.

And busses used in far, far more cities...but now I see why. Hong Kong and Toronto are the centres of the universe, if they do it, it's right?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Yeah, I can see it now. 30 years from now, you'll still be living in Toronto, knowing nothing about the city, and complaining.

It's funny you say this after I correct you for being wrong (eg, skating on Grenadier pond). Par for the course in this thread.

I really don't know why anyone would live in a place they don't like?

Proximity to the SO while he's in school. It's not permanent.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
It's funny you say this after I correct you for being wrong (eg, skating on Grenadier pond).

A warm winter. Used to be able to skate on it. It's those damm diesel buses.

As for mistakes, compared to your long list of wrong assumptions, this one is insignificant.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
And here's a pic of those dangerous streetcar tracks. Yup, a real hazard.

Ever rode a bike near one? Ever driven a car after a fresh snowfall on a street with streetcar tracks? You get stuck in a "nut" and when you get out of it you're sliding into other lanes...

I'm not even going to discuss in depth how awful the street conditions are on streets like St. Claire with streetcar tracks. The reason the roads aren't repaved? The streetcar tracks make it too expensive to do so...there's potholes all over it.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
A warm winter. Used to be able to skate on it. It's those damm diesel buses.

Again, you're wrong. The city never even checks it for ice thickness.

You've no idea what you're talking about, as usual. (PS: I live all of a 3 min walk from said pond).

[Tingkai]

A regular streetcar is 55 feet compared to 40 feet or less for a regular bus (the old doubledeckers in London were 30 feet long).

An extended bus maxes out at about 60 feet; streetcars are something like 75 feet, and in places like Vienna use triple streetcars. With streetcars, you can have create a train. The same can't be said of buses.

As for the cost, yes, initial startup is expensive, but that's not a factor with tracks already in place.

And yes, streetcars are expensive, but price is just one factor. Like I said there are tradeoffs.

Toronto needs a mix of transit systems, and should invest in restoring electric bus service. Toronto should also build an LRT line to the airport, just like Vancouver is doing.