Chavez once again porves he's a tin pot dictator in the making.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The Chrtian Science Monitor I linked to and which LotM quoted was from May of 2006. I'm afraid there is no getting around this for you.

I can have it whatever way I want it. One would expect, if oil production had dropped to 50% of its output from 1999, that it would have been doing so over a long period that it would be noticeable four years after Chavez' election. You have been saying for four years now how horrible Chavez is and how he is destroying Venezuela and how oil production has completely collapsed. Yet immediately after the strike, oil production bounced back almost to previous levels.

CM quotes the former head of the Venezuelan petroleum company for the 50% production. While they don't say who they are quoting from, the same exact figure is used by this man elswhere, and CM starts using his name immediately following their "unnamed source."

Now, The International Energy Agency, which is the one place where everyone seems to be quoting from has recently admitted they underestimated Venezuela's production by about 300,000 bpd, so instead of the 2.6 mbpd that is quoted by CM (which is supposed to be 50% of 3.5mbpd???) is actually 2.9 mbpd. Venezuela claims to be at 3.3 mbpd.

In any event, it's clear that Venezuela's doing quite well, and hardly in dire straits. While those who loathe Chavez are claiming that he's driving the country to ruin, that ruin is yet no where to be seen, and lots of people are making lots of money. While right-wingers leave the country in an attempt to make the economy scream, new people are happily moving in to the vacated positions. Maybe they don't know their jobs as well as the people they are replacing, but people can learn. It's not as if Wall Street complains all that much when American corporations toss out their expensive knowledgeable workers and replace then with fresh meat. Venezuela will survive the loss of traitorous dinosaurs.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
Focus on the slaves, Che.

No, focus on what the hell I wrote, Ned. Are we all slaves now because we no longer have the right to enslave one another or rape our wives or beat our children or kill those who slight us? Cuz our ancestors had those rights, and we don't. So tell me that we're so much worse off now.

[Caligastia]

I hear Chavez likes to insert baby stoats up his bottom.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


The right to property. The right to exploit others. The right to bribe the government. Great liberal rights.

freedom of speech. The right to vote in fair elections. Freedom to oppose the govt legally. The ones we were talking about when you said "this is a revolution" If you are going to abolish rights to property, you have to do it in ways that maintain legality, and political and civil rights. If you dont, you will find that the property is not in the hands of the workers. It will be controlled by a state that is apart from and over the workers. You will have traded one master for another.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
In any event, it's clear that Venezuela's doing quite well, and hardly in dire straits. While those who loathe Chavez are claiming that he's driving the country to ruin, that ruin is yet no where to be seen, and lots of people are making lots of money.


LOTM - by that logic folks should stop complaining about bush's macroeconomic management.


While right-wingers leave the country in an attempt to make the economy scream,


LOTM - you really think thats their motive? They are uprooting themselves to spite the govt?

new people are happily moving in to the vacated positions. Maybe they don't know their jobs as well as the people they are replacing, but people can learn. It's not as if Wall Street complains all that much when American corporations toss out their expensive knowledgeable workers and replace then with fresh meat.

LOTM - it depends. How expensive are the older workers, and how important are the skills. Companies that do it usually have the bottom line in mind, which is why Wall Street accepts it. Now obviously Chavez has made his own investment decision, and has decided that putting in people who will be his loyal political supporters is worth any economic loss. Now if you think his political agenda is 100% justice you will evaluate that differently than if you think hes mainly interested in his personal power.


Venezuela will survive the loss of traitorous dinosaurs.

LOTM - is there evidence that every single one who left was traitorous? Flubber suggests that is not the case. Flinging accusations of treachery against everyone who opposes the govt is hardly promising for democracy.

[Flubber]

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by chegitz guevara


In any event, it's clear that Venezuela's doing quite well, and hardly in dire straits. While those who loathe Chavez are claiming that he's driving the country to ruin, that ruin is yet no where to be seen, and lots of people are making lots of money.

Of course!! I'm not gettin into the production debate but you may have noticed that oil has been priced WAY higher than it had been. Even at half the production, they would bring in the same money as years before.


I thought I saw some articles that indicated that production was much lower than it WOULD HAVE BEEN according to the oil companies plans. The claim wasn't ruin but just that a lot less was being done.'

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by chegitz guevara


While right-wingers leave the country in an attempt to make the economy scream, new people are happily moving in to the vacated positions. Maybe they don't know their jobs as well as the people they are replacing, but people can learn.

My Venezualen co-workers would be would be amused to hear they are right-wingers. Does anyone with a marketable profession qualify?

Oh and people can learn and they will learn but Chavez's actions have meant the departure of much outside expertise AND a lot of ther Venezualen experts as well.

The reality is that they probably have enough skilled people to maintain current projects. BUt I doubt they have the capabilities to move new complex projects forward nearly as well.

Imagine you put an 8 year old as manager of a sports team. Immediate performance shouldn't change much but how does the long term look

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by chegitz guevara


It's not as if Wall Street complains all that much when American corporations toss out their expensive knowledgeable workers and replace then with fresh meat.

Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. If venezuela is simply shedding higher priced talent to avail themselves of cheaper labour, they are probably the only oil business in the world that sees that as smart. OIl exploration and development is becoming increasingly complex and since even a very minor miscalculation can add millions to cost of even a single well, oil companies typically do not mind paying for talent.

But that wasn't what Chavez did and you know it.

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Venezuela will survive the loss of traitorous dinosaurs.

The two beautiful ladies that work near me-- (one in my department) are both mid 30s professionals. Both were lawyers there and have a lawyer and engineer as husbands. Pleasant articulate professional people that canada is very very happy to have.

Traitorous Dinosaurs indeed !!!!

[Flubber]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
[LOTM - is there evidence that every single one who left was traitorous? Flubber suggests that is not the case. Flinging accusations of treachery against everyone who opposes the govt is hardly promising for democracy.

I agree.


The people I know believe in democracy and love Venezuala. They just do not like what Chavez is doing. I believe the cronyism at the state companies where unqualified friends of Chavez were installed above trained professionals was the final straw

[Flubber]

Oh and Che

I am a bit surprised at you . You generally support rights to strike and protest from what I have seen.

But if the strike is aimed at a government you want to support, does your tune change drastically?

[Dinner]

Indeed they become "traitorous dinosaurs".

[pchang]

I think

Che has a future as an executive for PDVSA.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
freedom of speech. The right to vote in fair elections. Freedom to oppose the govt legally. The ones we were talking about when you said "this is a revolution"

Maybe you were. I wasn't.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Flubber
Oh and Che

I am a bit surprised at you . You generally support rights to strike and protest from what I have seen.

But if the strike is aimed at a government you want to support, does your tune change drastically?

I never said I was neutral. I'm very definitely partisan and I don't pretend otherwise. I have a side, the side of the working class. I am opposed to the bourgeoisie. I hope to someday abolish them, non-violently if we can, violently if we are forced to resort to such in order to defend our lives.

In any event, I don't support all strikes categorically. When whites went on strike to oppose Blacks being hired, I would have opposed that (had I been alive when such things happened). A strike by a corrupt union in bed with management coupled with a lockout by that same management is not legitimate to me.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
che: While right-wingers leave the country in an attempt to make the economy scream,

LOTM - you really think thats their motive? They are uprooting themselves to spite the govt?

It's not like we haven't seen that happen before in Latin America's recent history. The most famous example was in Chile, leading up to Sept. 11, 1973. It happened in Panama before the American invasion. It happened in Peru.

I work with a Venezuelan who hates Chavez. He's furious with his countrymen for re-electing Chavez by a wide margin. He consider them lazy and just wanting handouts. He said he's not going back. It's not because of a looming dictatorship, but simply because he doesn't think the government should "be giving hand-outs" to everyone.

[Kuciwalker]

How is that any different from leftists who said they'd move to Canada if Bush were reelected?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


It's not like we haven't seen that happen before in Latin America's recent history. The most famous example was in Chile, leading up to Sept. 11, 1973. It happened in Panama before the American invasion. It happened in Peru.

Those people left out of spite, not because of their own material conditions? You and I have very different beliefs about how people make decisions to migrate.