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Originally posted by Lorizael
Man, crazy black people sure seem to like to make up things. Kwanza, the Nation of Islam, traffic lights, etc.
It was my impression that the black guy who invented the traffic light was quite sane and not radical. I should say, I'd never heard anything to the contrary; I didn't do much research into the matter, tbh. Also, the traffic light, unlike Kwanzaa and the NoI, is sensible and valuable in our society.
Originally posted by Elok
...Dr. Gene Ray's "Time Cube" theories...
I think we should conduct polls on this, and disenfranchise anyone who supports said theories.
It was my impression that the black guy who invented the traffic light was quite sane and not radical. I should say, I'd never heard anything to the contrary; I didn't do much research into the matter, tbh. Also, the traffic light, unlike Kwanzaa and the NoI, is sensible and valuable in our society.
Wow, with a quick google search, I can find nothing about the man, except that his name may have been Lester Farnsworth Wire. With that middle name, though, I think I can prove conclusively that he was pretty whacky.
There was a flat statement of fact that American Muslims do not agree with Farrakhan or the Nation of Islam. Typically, in a brief, such a statement has to be supported by citation to authority.
Here are a few questions and answers that tend to prove that most US Muslims agree with "world view" of most Muslims outside the US and would agree with Farrakhan on Israel, at least.
"13. Is Al Qaeda attacking America because Al Qaeda hates American freedoms?
YES 17
NO 269
UNDECIDED 21
14. Is Al Qaeda attacking America because Al Qaeda hates American involvement in the Muslim world?
YES 228
NO 54
UNDECIDED 25
5. Did Muslims hijack planes and fly them into buildings on 9/11?
YES 117
NO 139
UNDECIDED 51
6. Did the U.S. government have advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks, and allow the attacks to occur?
YES 200
NO 70
UNDECIDED 37
7. Did the U.S. government organize the 9/11 attacks?
YES 106
NO 151
UNDECIDED 50
8. Are the tapes of Osama Bin Laden, claiming responsibility for the 9/11 attacks and threatening future attacks, real or fake?
REAL 126
FAKE 129
UNDECIDED 52
25. Was America justified in invading Afghanistan after 9/11?
YES 51
NO 248
UNDECIDED 8
27. Is violence by Muslims against the American military overseas acceptable, in retaliation for the American government’s actions in the Muslim world?
YES 134
NO 154
UNDECIDED 19
and from the article's comments,
"I know that most Americans think that those Muslims started this war. If you look at the history this is not true. And it is also not true that this war was started because Muslims cannot accept Americans being ‘free’ or having a ‘democracy.’
The grievances started due to American foreign policy, primarily the U.S. government for support of tyrannies in the Muslim world and the U.S. government support of Israel.
The spark that lit the fire was the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia — Gulf War I.
There are many books those who wish to understand what happened can read to understand this.
This is not to say whether those Muslims at war with the American people are correct or justified and it is certainly not to agree with their tactics, some of which are against the teachings of Islam."
There was a flat statement of fact that American Muslims do not agree with Farrakhan or the Nation of Islam. Typically, in a brief, such a statement has to be supported by citation to authority.
No. As L pointed out, your argument that a hypothetical Muslim President would most likely ignore public opinion and oppose Israel's existence is premised on the underlying assumption that most American Muslims oppose Israel's existence.
To justify said assumption, you posed 2 pieces of evidence:
Exhibit A demonstrated that most Middle Eastern Muslims oppose Israel's existence, but that says nothing about American muslims and is thus commits a flagrant ignoratio elenchi fallacy (even if true).
Exhibit B demonstrated that Louis Farrakhan opposes Israel's existence. However, he is one man, and you've provided no evidence that all or even most members of his organization hold the same view. Secondly, the Nation of Islam is composed of African-Americans, which account for a slim minority of American Muslims. Finally, the Nation of Islam is extremely divergent from mainstream Sunni Islam and is branded heretical by experts on the latter. For these three reasons, it should be obvious that using Exhibit B as evidence justifying your assumption commits a flagrant hasty generalization fallacy.
With these two fallacious points removed, the burden of proof is on you to provide an Exhibit C demonstrating at least one of the following:
1) Most American Muslims oppose Israel's existence
2) Most American Muslims at least agree with Farrakhan on most issues
In short, the debate goes something like this:
1) X believe A, ergo Y.
2) Why is "X believe A" a given?
1) B believe A, ergo X believe A.
2) B is irrelevant to X.
1) C believes A, ergo X believe A.
2) Why is C a representative sample of X?
1) Prove that it isn't.
If you can't see a fundamental problem with the logical structure above, then I refuse to believe you didn't bomb the LSAT let alone the Bar. Unless of course you've gotten senile since those days.
Originally posted by Arrian
The Nediverse has different laws of logic.
-Arrian
The ABA does not, however, which is why I'm so perplexed. I can't imagine he could spout this nonsense without being laughed out of the courtroom.
Maybe, maybe he could sit in a large firm's basement perfunctorily inserting names into replevin document templates or the like without becoming a laughing stock. That would explain why there's enough the time to post on Poly all day.
Here are a few questions and answers that tend to prove that most US Muslims agree with "world view" of most Muslims outside the US and would agree with Farrakhan on Israel, at least.
You never cease to amaze me. From your own source:
Muslims For A Safe America conducted a survey at the Islamic Society of North America’s 43rd Annual Convention in Chicago from September 1, 2006 to September 4, 2006.
307 Muslims who are American citizens participated in the survey at the Muslims For A Safe America booth at ISNA.
...
However, this was NOT a scientific survey, because ISNA Convention attendees who visited the Muslims For A Safe America booth are not necessarily representative of the American Muslim community as a whole.
Darius, your post is a bunch of crap, and you know it.
The question on the table is what do most US Muslims believe about Israel. Do they believe in a two-state solution, or a unified Palestine under majority Arab rule, ala, South Africa.
How do we determine this?
We check prior statements of prominent Muslims.
We check surveys about their attitudes in general about the ME, Israel and the US.
Etc.
I have provided statements of prominent Muslims that Israel has no right to exist. I can give you a plethora more, if you insist, that most prominent US Muslims refer to Israel as the Zionist entity, or settlement or the like.
I did post the survey, above, of Muslim attitudes in general about ME politics. They are very, very consistent with the attitudes of Muslims outside the US on point after point.
Are we to conclude, therefore, that US Muslim opinion is inconsistent with Muslims opinion outside the US on the single issue in question when all evidence adduced points in the opposite direction?
Darius, you have statements. You have opinion polls. You have online websites. All are consistent. And yet you still insistent that US Muslim opinion is contrary to all this? And you call me illogical?
1. a search shows NO opinion polls of American muslims on their stand on Israel - Im not sure any exist.
2. Daniel Pipes, whom someone labeled biased against Muslims, actually says that many American Muslims are more moderate than CAIR, which does not speak for them all. I think Pipes is being mischarecterized in this debate.
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
Originally posted by Ned
And yet you still insistent that US Muslim opinion is contrary to all this?
I don't have time to pick apart your longer post, but in any event the answer to all of it is the same: not once did I argue that U.S. Muslim opinion is contrary to the samples you provided. Look at my posts and you'll see I made no statement whatsoever about whether your conclusion is actually accurate. It very well could be for all I know, but that was not my point of contention.
What I criticized, rather, was the piss-poor attempt at proving your conclusion with red herrings, your statement that the burden of proof was somehow on others to disprove your own claims, and the fact that such an explicit ignorance of formal logic could be embraced by anyone licensed to practice law.
LoTM, agreed there are no polls directly on point. But there is that one poll of Muslims about ME in general. One can infer quite a bit from that poll.
Darius, again the statement that I asked to be supported was a statement of FACT, not opinion, about Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. I simply asked for a link to support this statement. I did not ask for a link to a survey or whatever on the main issue in question, Muslim attitudes about Israel.
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