Barrack Hussein Obama

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Ned
...I think most would want Israel to be subsumed by a larger, Arab-dominated Palestine...

For the love of God, please back this up. Please provide some shred of evidence that would support this statement. A biased poll, a Washington Times article, anything.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok


Tangent, but I've always wondered: it's not coincidence that Kwanzaa bears such a suspicious resemblance to Hannukah, is it? I don't want to be the bigot who says 'Black people are so damned lazy they can't even make up an original fake holiday, they have to rip off the Jews and slap on some names whitey can't pronounce to hide it,' but really, it looks that way...

to be fair, most blacks dont celebrate Kwanzaa - not nearly as many as celebrate Christmas. And if they do celebrate Kwanzaa, they seem quite aware it was made up.

At least they dont go around killing Jews on Kwanzaa, the way some folks used to do on Passover/Easter

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
Is there a miracle of oil also?

I took part in a Hannukah celebration last year (a couple weeks ago). It was sort of cool, but seemed to have relatively low meaning compared to Passover, for example.

It might have been because the family I was with weren't observant Jews...

JM

Opposite. Generally, its the non-observant Jews who make a big deal about Hanukkah, and neglect other jewish holidays.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Lorizael


For the love of God, please back this up. Please provide some shred of evidence that would support this statement. A biased poll, a Washington Times article, anything.

"In a spring 2002 poll of residents in the West Bank and Gaza conducted by the Jerusalem Media and Communication Center, a Palestinian organization, 43 percent of respondents called for a Palestinian state only in the West Bank and Gaza and 51 percent insisted on the state in "all of historic Palestine,"

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1030

""Moderate" Islam - Opinion Polls in the Islamic world
Apologists for Islam say Islam means "peace" and the fundamentalist killers are a tiny minority. This is not true. Opinion polls show that they represent mainstream opinion in the Islamic world (large minority, and often majority):

...

The Pew Research Center has done a number of surveys of the appalling opinions of the Islamic world.



Supporting the killing of Jewish civilians
The majority of Palestinians support suicide bombings (also here and here).
The majority of Palestinians support the killing of Jewish civilians, including Jewish children (also here and here).
The majority of Palestinians do not accept Israel's right to exist.
Poll: Decrease in Palestinian support of terror, Dec. 8, 2004. After Arafat's death, a majority of Palestinians, for the first time, now oppose the intifada. Albeit this would be for strategic reasons - because the intifada is not working - not because they have suddenly discovered that killing civilians is wrong. But still, it's a start.
It didn't last: Poll, Feb 2006 - 56 percent of Palestinians support suicide bombing of Israeli civilians.
Poll, July 2006 - 60 percent of Palestinians support rocket attacks on Israeli civilians. 67 percent support kidnapping and murdering Israeli civilians.

Pew survey, May 2003, reported in International Herald Tribune, June 3, 2003 (here and here).
The majority in Morocco, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority, Kuwait, Lebanon, Indonesia and Pakistan want to end the state of Israel.
What the World Thinks in 2002 - survey, December 4, 2002
The majority of Lebanese support suicide bombing.
The majority of Nigerians who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
The majority of Bangladeshis who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
47 percent of Jordanians who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
43 percent of Pakistanis who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
A Year After Iraq War - survey, March 16, 2004
The majority in Jordan support suicide bombing of Jews.
The majority in Morocco support suicide bombing of Jews.
The majority who expressed an opinion in Pakistan support suicide bombing of Jews.


Supporting the killing of American and western civilians
The majority of Palestinians support the Sept 11th killings.
Palestinians dance in the streets on 9/11.
It was furiously claimed that these were just a small minority. But opinion polls showed this was not true. The majority of Palestinians supported 9/11.
73% of Palestinians supported suicide attacks against USA in Nov. 2000 poll
Poll, Dec 2005 (and direct link) - 65 percent of Palestinians support Al Qaeda terror attacks on the US and Europe, such as 9/11, Madrid or London.

The majority of Egyptians support the Sept 11th killings.
Pew survey, May 2003, reported in International Herald Tribune, June 3, 2003 (here and here).
The majority in Indonesia, Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan and the Palestinian Authority express some support for the mass killer of thousands of innocent men, women and children, Osama bin Laden.
A Year After Iraq War - survey, March 16, 2004
The majority in Pakistan and Jordan have a favourable view of Osama bin Laden.
The majority who expressed an opinion in Morocco have a favourable view of Osama bin Laden.

Supporting Saddam Hussein
Pew survey, May 2003, reported in International Herald Tribune, June 3, 2003 (here and here).
The majority in Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority said the Iraqis were worse off without the genocidal tyrant Saddam Hussein.
The majority in Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, Lebanon, Jordan, Morocco and the Palestinian Authority were disappointed that Iraq did not put up more of a fight.

Supporting the Iraqi fascist "resistance"
A Year After Iraq War - survey, March 16, 2004
The majority in Jordan support suicide bombing of the American liberators of Iraq.
The majority in Morocco support suicide bombing of the American liberators of Iraq.
The majority who expressed an opinion in Pakistan support suicide bombing of the American liberators of Iraq.

40 percent of Indonesian Muslims would use violence against those blaspheming Islam. "

http://markhumphrys.com/islamic.world.html#moderate

The main article has links to the polls.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by loinburger

Depends. Does "oppose Israel" mean "desire the destruction of Israel," or does it mean "criticize Israel in any way shape or form?" Because CAIR appears to oppose Israel's discriminatory practices without opposing its existence, so if your definition of "oppose" is the first one then I'd say that most American Muslims do not "oppose Israel."

quite frankly, I think CAIR is being disingenous. They are intelligent enough to know that calling for Israel to cease to exist would make them a political nullity in the United States. What the actual majority of American muslims believe, I dont know, and would have to see unbiased poll results. I would readily admit that American muslims, AFAICT, are more moderate not only than their coreligionists in the Muslim world, but are more moderate, on average, than muslims in Europe. It certainly would strike me as silly to oppose a person just because they are a muslim, when their political record is open to inspection, and a fortiori because they have a muslim name. But lets not overstate the moderation of the entire community.

[lord of the mark]

nice polling data, Ned, but Loin referred specifically to American Muslims.

[Ned]

As for the crisis in the Middle East, in a wave of sentiment that bodes ill for the future of the U.S.-sponsored "road map" to peace, Muslims lined up strongly behind the opinion that "the rights and needs of the Palestinian people cannot be taken care of as long as the state of Israel exists."

The conviction that no way can be found for Israel and the Palestinians to coexist is strongest in Morocco (90 percent), followed by Jordan (85 percent), the Palestinian Authority (80 percent), Kuwait (72 percent), Lebanon (65 percent), Indonesia (58 percent) and Pakistan (57 percent).

http://web.archive.org/web/20030605132714/http://www.iht.com/articles/98399.htm

[Lorizael]

Ned, you didn't have to get biased information; I just said it was okay if you did...

Anyway, I'll give the data the benefit of the doubt, but we still have no data demonstrating the beliefs of American Muslims. And that's what Barack Obama is... an American... Christian... with a Muslim-sounding name... and apparently some Muslim ancestry somewhere...

Edit: Let me qualify. The Pew Research Center is fine, but Mark Humphrys and Daniel Pipes both seem to have a little something against Islam to begin with.

[Elok]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
At least they dont go around killing Jews on Kwanzaa, the way some folks used to do on Passover/Easter

I don't know about the history of Jew-mistreating, so I won't comment on that, but we have always acknowledged that Easter owes a good deal to Passover. We didn't go and claim a *cough* totally unrelated holiday at almost the same time celebrated in much the same manner, as in Kwanzaa. And I know most black people don't celebrate Kwanzaa, it just irritates me that the farce is given equal treatment to real holidays that weren't made up a few decades ago by radicals.

Come to think of it, as long as I'm off on tangents, have you ever read the Grimm brothers tale "The Jew in the Thornbush?" It's pretty funny in a sick, demented way; the 'hero' extorts a bag of gold from a Jew by playing a magic fiddle that makes him dance in the middle of a thornbush and refusing to stop unless he hands it over. Then the Jew goes and complains, with good cause, that his gold was stolen. The trial goes well for him only because the judge can't believe that any Jew would ever give money just to stop a fiddle from playing, as the 'hero' testifies. The guy's on his way to the gallows and asks to play his fiddle as a last request. It's granted, over the Jew's protests, and everyone, judge included, starts dancing like mad. They're forced to spare him, just to get him to stop making them jig. Before he stops, though, he presses the Jew to tell where he got the gold from. And he screeches in reply, "I stole it! But you earned it honestly." Then the fiddling stops, the young man goes free, and the Jew is hanged instead. The end.

I love the lesson of this story: Putting a man's life in danger and refusing to free him unless he gives you all his money is an honest way to make a living--provided the man is a Jew. Whee!

[Ned]

Perhaps Loin, was, but I was not.

But see this from Farrakhan's "website":

"...America and England and the nations backed Israel's existence. Therefore when you aid and abet someone in a criminal conspiracy, you are a part of that criminal conspiracy. So America and England and the nations are criminals in the sight of almighty God. Now that nation called Israel, never has had any peace in forty years and she will never have any peace because there can never be any peace structured on injustice, thievery, lying and deceit and using the name of God to shield your dirty religion under His holy and righteous name.

"America and England and the nations, because of their backing of Israel, are being drawn into the heat of the third world war, which is called Armageddon. Oh America, you have blundered so. And instead of recognizing the mistake you have made and make a turn for the better, you persist in your evil. And so the consequences of evil must come. You hate us because we dare to say that we are the chosen people of God and can back it up..."

http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/toread/farrfact.htm

[Elok]

...

Okay, Ned, two problems I see, right off the bat:

1. Why did you put "website" in quotation marks like that? Are you contesting the claim that it is, in fact, an HTML or other document distributed over the internet for browsers?
2. Despite the name, the Nation of Islam is not part of mainstream Islam, any more than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints reflects on Christianity. It's a weird fringe group concocted by black radicals in the seventies or thereabouts, and most Muslims disagree with it. As such, it's irrelevant to this argument.

[Ned]

Elok, I put it in quotes because it appears to support Farrakhan without actually identifying it as his.

Now it is your turn to show how most American Muslims do not support Farrakhan's views on the state of Israel.

[Lorizael]

Man, crazy black people sure seem to like to make up things. Kwanza, the Nation of Islam, traffic lights, etc.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Ned
Now it is your turn to show how most American Muslims do not support Farrakhan's views on the state of Israel.

No! That's not how logic works! You have to prove that they do, first; then the rest of us can go about providing evidence to the contrary. The burden of proof is not on us to disprove something that has not yet been proven.

[Elok]

Yes, but the use of scare-quotes around "website" in particular hints that you object to the idea of the document in question being called that. Otherwise I would put the quote-marks around a different word, or just phrase it to suggest that it is Farrakhan's relationship to the text in particular that I doubt.

I can't prove that most American Muslims don't support Farrakhan's views, since people don't take polls on such things AFAIK. They've also never been polled on whether or not they agree with Alex Chiu, L. Ron Hubbard, Dr. Gene Ray's "Time Cube" theories, or the possibility that we really are living in The Matrix. But really, I wasn't even arguing that so much as contesting that Farrakhan is a valid spokesperson for American Islam. The nutball from godhatesfags.com might be quoted on a website called jesuswrathonline.org, but that would not constitute a glimpse into mainstream Christian belief.