Arabic script on the side of busses makes Virginians wet their pants...

[MrFun]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


?

Just pointing out the absurdity of the claim that attacks against Muslims has nothing to do with prejudice against a religion/culture.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Whoha


Well now you know, this choice, sitting astride all the exits, was the one selected by the september 11th hijackers. I'd imagine that air marshalls, flight attentants, and others watch for this, and other signs.

A quick google search seems to indicate that the september 11th hijcakers where all seated in first class, close to the pilot's door and in aisle seats.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Dis


estimates are that it will take 100 years to win the war on terror (according to some general)

And his basis for that estimate is ... ?

[Dis]

he pulled it out of his ass.

My guess is it's an optimistic estimate. It will be at least 100 years.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by MrFun



Just pointing out the absurdity of the claim that attacks against Muslims has nothing to do with prejudice against a religion/culture.

It's prejudice, and there is a fine line between fear and hate.

But there is a difference.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Dis
he pulled it out of his ass.

My guess is it's an optimistic estimate. It will be at least 100 years.

I've got a lower estimate in my ass - I'm willing to pull it out and give it to the GOP in return for a moderate fortune.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by General Ludd


A quick google search seems to indicate that the september 11th hijcakers where all seated in first class, close to the pilot's door and in aisle seats.

alright then, the fact that they moved to the above seating arrangement from their assigned seating arrangement isn't like the september 11th attack.

[rah]

I'm also in the camp that is suspicious and think their acts were a deliberate attempt to provoke a response to draw attention.

And no, in general I don't believe that the US is paralized in fear about terrorists. In General, is the key word, since there are always a few nuts out there.

[KrazyHorse]

Paralysed, no.

Overly affected by, yes.

[Aeson]

I agree that too much is made of terrorism relatively speaking, and not enough made of the other (mostly self-inflicted) threats we face that have been far more detrimental to our nation.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



There are some things I dont accept "****" around on, and the minimization of 9/11 is one of them, esp if its implied that because its still central to our national mood, we are therefore cowards.

I wouldnt have brought up the other stuff otherwise.

I can't wait for 9/11 to be minimized. We will all be better the day it happens. Every day I walk by that hole in the ground. Heck, I went to school four blocks north of there, and I still can basically see the hole in the skyline. I was lucky not to lose anyone there, and I certainly remmeber what it was like to be in this city that day.

But one thing is certainly clear to me. Being a victim, acting like a victim, making a culture of being a victim is poisonous, its dangerous, its stupid. Being a victim does not enoble. Suffering does not enoble. Sticking to a narrative in which we are victims is a terrible narrative to have. And I see no people who have taken the mantle of victimhoood and made it central to their narrative as going anywhere admirable.

9/11 was a criminal act. Those responsible are murderers, and need to be found and prosecuted. But the sad fact is that by keeping our victimization from 9.11 alive we keep their work alive. We remain afraid. That is the whole point of terrorism, to spread fear.

Taking steps to disrupt terrorist plots, taking steps to minimize access to materials, and increasing intelliegence gathering. Breaking up acitve rings, these are the steps that work in breaking up organized crime, which is what terrorist orgs. are. Giving in to bigotry or ignorant fear is not helpful.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Dis
he pulled it out of his ass.

My guess is it's an optimistic estimate. It will be at least 100 years.

The phrase "war on terror" is a semantic boodogle. such a "war" is a winable as a "war on drugs" or a "war on poverty."

See how much success we have had in those two other wars?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


The phrase "war on terror" is a semantic boodogle. such a "war" is a winable as a "war on drugs" or a "war on poverty."

See how much success we have had in those two other wars?

compared to the level of poverty when the war on poverty was declared, plenty of success.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


I can't wait for 9/11 to be minimized. We will all be better the day it happens. Every day I walk by that hole in the ground. Heck, I went to school four blocks north of there, and I still can basically see the hole in the skyline. I was lucky not to lose anyone there, and I certainly remmeber what it was like to be in this city that day.

But one thing is certainly clear to me. Being a victim, acting like a victim, making a culture of being a victim is poisonous, its dangerous, its stupid. Being a victim does not enoble. Suffering does not enoble. Sticking to a narrative in which we are victims is a terrible narrative to have. And I see no people who have taken the mantle of victimhoood and made it central to their narrative as going anywhere admirable.

9/11 was a criminal act. Those responsible are murderers, and need to be found and prosecuted. But the sad fact is that by keeping our victimization from 9.11 alive we keep their work alive. We remain afraid. That is the whole point of terrorism, to spread fear.

Taking steps to disrupt terrorist plots, taking steps to minimize access to materials, and increasing intelliegence gathering. Breaking up acitve rings, these are the steps that work in breaking up organized crime, which is what terrorist orgs. are. Giving in to bigotry or ignorant fear is not helpful.

I am of course opposed to bigotry and ignorant fear. I disagree about suffering. People can learn from suffering things they learn no where else. What doesnt kill us makes us stronger. I dont know that id call that "enobling" but its a part of life.

A narrative focused only on ones victimization limits one, but so does denial of the truth. Some folks HAVE been victims, and you dont gain strength by denying it. That some have made careers out of victimization has led to backlash, but the extremes in both directions are wrong, IMO.

Of course Id like to undo the damage of 9/11. What I meant, as anyone who read me with an honest interest in what I was saying (As i think KH did) understood I was opposed to minimizing the truth of what happened then. As I would oppose the minimization of other historical events, from the Atlantic slave trade to the atrocities in Darfur. And, yes, the Shoah. If that makes me less than the ubermensch, some hold as goal, so be it. Here I stand, I can do no other.


Happy Chanukah,
I celebrate freedom and victory and heritage and memory. I wish you equal joy.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


I am of course opposed to bigotry and ignorant fear. I disagree about suffering. People can learn from suffering things they learn no where else. What doesnt kill us makes us stronger. I dont know that id call that "enobling" but its a part of life.

So is forgetting. People learn from mistakes, NOT, suffering. I would hardly tell an abused child that their pain was a "learning experience." The "lesson" of suffering is simply, don;t let it happen again. UNfortunately, since suffering is something imposed upon you without your will, the only way not to suffer is for you to impose your will on others, to prevent them from hurting you again. That is why so many abused become abusers.

A narrative focused only on ones victimization limits one, but so does denial of the truth. Some folks HAVE been victims, and you dont gain strength by denying it. That some have made careers out of victimization has led to backlash, but the extremes in both directions are wrong, IMO.

One is a victim only as long as they are being victimized. Once the victimizer is done, the only way to remain a victim is to self-identify as one, and then, well, you never stop being a victim.

Of course Id like to undo the damage of 9/11. What I meant, as anyone who read me with an honest interest in what I was saying (As i think KH did) understood I was opposed to minimizing the truth of what happened then. As I would oppose the minimization of other historical events, from the Atlantic slave trade to the atrocities in Darfur. And, yes, the Shoah. If that makes me less than the ubermensch, some hold as goal, so be it. Here I stand, I can do no other.

one does not "undo" damage. One rebuilds and strives for something better.

YOu say "minimize the truth", cliging to the fiction of there being a "truth." There are the facts, how many died, how much was destroyed, how it was done. BUt those facts are just information. What 9/11 means, what it should mean to our lives is not a "truth", it is a choice people make. Making 9/11 the central narrative of our current times is a choice. NOt one I support.

Happy Chanukah,
I celebrate freedom and victory and heritage and memory. I wish you equal joy.

Thanks.

Happy Chanukah back.