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  • #76
    Originally posted by Wezil


    We still agree. I do defence work and see charges that should not proceed all too often.

    Again, we don't have all the facts but I can see a case here based upon what we do know. If there isn't a reasonable prospect of securing a conviction then yes, I would expect the prosecutor to withdraw the charge.
    Ahh if you dio defense work you should be more current than me-- I believe I am right on the defense of property issue-- could you confirm that ?


    On the merits I believe we have a different view of the facts -- I see someone surprised in their own home who reasonably perceived a threat and used physical force to defuse the threat. I am still not certain ( don't have enough facts) to asseess the beating but if it was of short duration I would accept it as reasonable even if injuries were severe. I just imagine myself in that situation.

    If I think I hear something but am not sure enough to call the police, I would likely grab something and investigate. If someone popped out at me they might get a cracked skull or a wrecked knee but I am NOT taking time to investigate. If they get hurt -- tough sh*t
    You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Wezil
      ...and hope they don't hurt themselves on your poorly maintained property. This was the part that always bugged me.
      I found those cases offensive-- Sorry I shouldn't have any duty to an intentional and illegal trespasser
      You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Flubber
        If I think I hear something but am not sure enough to call the police, I would likely grab something and investigate. If someone popped out at me they might get a cracked skull or a wrecked knee but I am NOT taking time to investigate. If they get hurt -- tough sh*t
        Yep.
        ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
        ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Flubber


          Ahh if you dio defense work you should be more current than me-- I believe I am right on the defense of property issue-- could you confirm that ?
          My understanding is the same as yours. As you know, our Constitution is silent on property rights. Like you, I don't do Crim law. I am in transportation.


          On the merits I believe we have a different view of the facts -- I see someone surprised in their own home who reasonably perceived a threat and used physical force to defuse the threat. I am still not certain ( don't have enough facts) to asseess the beating but if it was of short duration I would accept it as reasonable even if injuries were severe. I just imagine myself in that situation.

          If I think I hear something but am not sure enough to call the police, I would likely grab something and investigate. If someone popped out at me they might get a cracked skull or a wrecked knee but I am NOT taking time to investigate. If they get hurt -- tough sh*t
          Again, we would need to hear/see the evidence. I take your point and would probably react similarly. If the teen was subdued and a little extra beating was issued to send a message then the owner crossed the line.

          I have a hard time imagining much force being required to subdue a teen so drunk that he didn't know where he was...but I wasn't there.
          "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
          "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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          • #80
            nm - weezie screwup.
            "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
            "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

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            • #81
              Having an unknown intruder in your house can be a pretty scary thing. You can't expect someone to act rationally in that situation.
              ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
              ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Wezil




                If the teen was subdued and a little extra beating was issued to send a message then the owner crossed the line.

                .
                I agree

                Originally posted by Wezil

                I have a hard time imagining much force being required to subdue a teen so drunk that he didn't know where he was...but I wasn't there.
                If it were dark and you struck quickly you might not have much chance to assess your intruder. Its just that, to me, that shadowy intruder anywhere in proximity to me is a real threat. If it takes 4 or 5 punches and/or throwing the intruder to the groud before you realize the true situation, so be it IMHO.

                Lets put it this way -- I would be apalled if I was charged with anything if I swung a bat at an intruder . . . and I would feel that way even if said intruder died
                You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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                • #83
                  Reasonable force for a Home-Owner defending the home from an intruder is IMHO much like that a police officer has. They can use force great enough to desisivly win a fight and protect themselves to possible danger. I'll present two senarios both of which would fit the details we have been given.

                  Assault Senario: The home-owner enters the basement turns on the lights and sees a drunk kid passed out on the floor. He proceeds to beat the **** out of the kid unprovoked

                  Resonable Defence: The home-owner sneaks up on the intruder in the dark without knowing anything about him, jumps the intruder and starts beating him, the kid tries to fight back but is thrown to the ground before being fully subdued.

                  These are extreams and I'm fairly shure reality lies someware inbetween. The home-owner isn't going to get charged because their is no way to tell whos lieing and the kid being drunk and a minor will not be belived over the home-owner. He could have recived the worst beating since Rodney King but without a tape it will never go to trial.
                  Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

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                  • #84
                    The decent thing to do, would be to drive him home and wake his parents. They would probably thank you sincerely.
                    So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in! - Supercitizen to stupid students
                    Be kind to the nerdiest guy in school. He will be your boss when you've grown up!

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
                      The home-owner isn't going to get charged because their is no way to tell whos lieing and the kid being drunk and a minor will not be belived over the home-owner. He could have recived the worst beating since Rodney King but without a tape it will never go to trial.
                      I expect Asher to keep an eye on the story for us.
                      "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                      "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
                        The decent thing to do, would be to drive him home and wake his parents. They would probably thank you sincerely.


                        No doubt, most posters until now is residing on the other side of the dam .
                        With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                        Steven Weinberg

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                        • #87
                          Re: Re: Re: Drunken teen stumbles into wrong home

                          Originally posted by Wezil


                          I'll say it again - He didn't "break in".
                          The law (in the U.S.) defines "breaking and entering" very broadly. It can be as little as opening an unlocked door and entering the building.

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                          • #88
                            Here's an even more serious case that calls into question of the ability to act in self defense. The story was a few days ago so this is a columnist's take-- so more opinion that a news story. It has everything, including a race issue.

                            The family of Kyfer Bearhat is angry -- and understandably so.

                            Their son, nephew, brother or cousin died a violent death in our city 10 days ago, repeatedly stabbed by a man along a northeast street.

                            And their outrage is fuelled by the fact the police know the identity of Bearhat's killer, but have not moved to lay a criminal charge against him.

                            Like all homicides, Bear-hat's was a tragic and untimely death. At 16, he presumably had a lifetime ahead of him -- one which could have been filled with joy and success for both himself and his family.

                            But what Bearhat's relatives have failed to recognize in their blinding grief over the loss of the teen is his killer may have been justified in taking his life.

                            According to police, the killer -- who has not been identified -- has provided evidence (apparently corroborated by independent witnesses) he was acting in self-defence.

                            Police said Bearhat attempted to strangle the man with jumper cables in a failed robbery and threatened to sexually assault his girlfriend.


                            The robbery victim knifed Bearhat before running to a nearby convenience store to seek help immediately after stabbing the teen an undisclosed number of times.

                            Both Bearhat's friends, who fled after the stabbing, and independent witnesses have backed up the man's claim, police officials have said.

                            And not to be accused of sweeping a potential crime under the table, investigators have turned the matter over to the Crown prosecutor's office to determine if charges are warranted.

                            Yet the sting of the boy's death still resonates within the Bearhat clan, made worse by the fact he is a member of a visible minority -- and one historically treated worse than any in Canada.

                            It's not surprising they have suggested Bearhat's Native heritage is playing a role in investigative decisions.

                            After all, government authorities have not always been the fairest when it comes to dealing with aboriginals.

                            It's understandable that some members of such a traditionally oppressed minority would have difficulty believing their race is not a factor.

                            But in this instance, any potential prejudice could just as easily be against the killer.

                            If he'd slain a thug (and that's exactly what Bearhat was that night) who happened to be white, the would-be robbery victim would not have to worry about political sensitivities.

                            As it stands, however, the teen's heritage is something decision-makers won't be able to ignore.

                            But before deciding whether to put a possibly innocent man to the expense of defending himself in court, officials will look more closely at more-tangible factors -- specifically the law.

                            Self-defence is an often-difficult-to-understand legal principal which can leave lawyers, judges and jurors scratching their heads.

                            But in simple terms, it allows individuals to use force to repel force.

                            No one is entitled to act excessively, but if the aggression one faces is life-threatening or likely to cause serious bodily harm, even killing an attacker can be justified.

                            The Bearhat family is right to be angry, but some of their outrage should be directed at the teen, who may have caused his own death.
                            You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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                            • #89
                              I like the

                              But in simple terms, it allows individuals to use force to repel force.

                              No one is entitled to act excessively, but if the aggression one faces is life-threatening or likely to cause serious bodily harm, even killing an attacker can be justified.
                              part - it sums up self defence and what is reasonable finding a trespasser/burglar in your house.

                              Finding a drunk teenager - probably confused and tame - in your cellar and banging his head into a concrete floor is a bit excessive.
                              With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

                              Steven Weinberg

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by BlackCat
                                I like the





                                Finding a drunk teenager - probably confused and tame - in your cellar and banging his head into a concrete floor is a bit excessive.
                                Thats quite an assumption-- Why would a drunk teenager be confused and tame instead of angry and belligerent??


                                Oh and the columnist has the essentials right-- Force must be proportionate. But you can consider the situation as it appeared to the user of the force-- For instance if an intruder draws something that can be mistaken for a kniife of gun, the fact that it turns out to be something else should not matter.
                                You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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