Ken Kutaragi replaced as president of Sony's gaming unit

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Asher

Why are you always talking about completely outrageous things?

I was using it was an example of how you can precisely control things with the analog sticks, and you go talking about how you can't position the car anywhere you want? Do you realize this is a gameplay construct?

I even said as much. If you actually read my posts you'd notice the part where I said this aspect was a good thing for a racing game.

How do you figure? There are two analog sticks, dear. One to determine one axis of movement, one to determine the other.

That'd be virtually impossible to control.

With an analog stick, if you map it directly to position of a cursor (whatever object you're manipulating, be it the targeting reticule, a car, or an object you're holding with the Force), then you hold the analog stick at a particular angle and inclination and the cursor moves to an equivalent point. E.g., I move the stick all the way to the left and the cursor moves all the way to the left, exactly in sync with the stick. To keep the cursor there I hold the stick left. This is exactly how Star Fox 64 works. If I release the stick then it returns to center and so does the cursor. The problem being, with this stick I can't control the velocity of the cursor very well as it moves from where it was to the new position - it essentially moves instantly, or with some lag, but because the area of the stick is so small I can't really just move my thumb to the new position more slowly to make the object move more slowly. I can a little bit, but over such small distances you only have a few speeds you can move at.

If you map the analog stick to velocity, that is, speed and direction of motion, then you gain fine control over your speed. Each inclination of the control stick corresponds to a different speed. This is just like aiming in Halo. However, you lose a lot of responsiveness. This is why an FPSer with a mouse will generally destroy one with a gamepad, because a mouse doesn't lose responsiveness. (This is relevent, because in this particular respect the remote is very similar to the mouse.) With a gamepad it takes a lot longer to get the cursor from one position to another, or if you turn the sensitivity up then you lose speed resolution exactly in proportion (if the sensitivity is doubled then the speed resolution is halved).

With two analog sticks, one for position of the cursor (so you hold it tilted at an angle and the object is going to start moving to that position) and another for the velocity (how fast it gets to that position), it's awkward. First, you have to hold them both in the same direction, which really wastes half the point of an analog stick (you're losing one of the four dimensions x1,y1,x2,y2, effectively). Also, as I mentioned, you can't move your character now, because you're using both sticks (and both thumbs, so you can't press anything on the d-pad or abxy, you're stuck with shoulder buttons only). With the remote, you still have your thumbs and a d-pad and analog stick, so you can move AND manipulate the cursor.

Note that when Verto suggested using both the Remote and the Nunchuck simultaneously, it was with the intention of increasing the difficulty and awkwardness of certain actions. It would be terrible as something you had to do for all objects.

[Kuciwalker]

I admit that you couldn't pluck the blaster out of a stormtrooper's hand. Graphics resolution has nothing to do with it either; with that degree of fine control you'd need to be a bloody virtuoso to do it in the heat of battle, seeing it or not.

You'd need the reflexes of a Jedi

(I feel entitled to a really bad joke after KH's )

[Kuciwalker]

I'd be much, much happier with the Wii if it was at least somewhat competent technically, came with a regular controller as an option as well, in addition to the Wiimote.

You can. There's the gamepad attachment to the remote, and you can plug in a gamecube controller.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Asher
The gameplay opportunities it "opens" are gimmicky in and of themselves (eg, throwing rocks while controlling your character). I don't back down from my gimmick comment, and in fact it's been reinforced by the discussion here on how "neat" the little things can be that doesn't actually change the gameplay so much as it provides an avenue for people like Kuci to get off pretending they're Darth Vader.

And pretending to be Darth Vader is pretty much what playing as a Jedi Knight consists of, no? Or do core elements of gaming with the Force consist of running, jumping, and shooting, like in every other game (which could be done equally well with the Wii controller)?

The Wii's CPU is a modified G3 (remember those? Before the G4 and G5 and Core Duos and Core 2 Duos that APple used) running at about 750MHz. Half-Life 2's gravity is not possible on such a console with any kind of scale like HL2's.

Okay then, assuming this is true, your point's valid. I don't know a G3 from a block of C4, myself. So there'd be a definite limit on how much stuff you could throw around?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
You can. There's the gamepad attachment to the remote, and you can plug in a gamecube controller.

But you can't actually use it in Wii games. That is a pretty big distinction.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Elok
I don't, but both involve fine motor control of a single player at a time, right? The football-snap could be simulated with a "throw" button, but so could juking the puck. You could have a "juke" button or whatever. You know, in case the game player doesn't want to bother with the physical motion of futzing around with the puck, so he can concentrate on what's going on in the game at large.

The puck control is the essence of the game of hockey and is subject to much strategy.

The football snap is not even close to being the essence of football...nor does it involve strategy of any kind.

[Kuciwalker]

Sure you can, if the game isn't one that relies on the remote and the developers put in support. SSBB will probably use the gamepad.

xpost

[Kuciwalker]

The reason Force use (particularly telekinesis) is usually gimmicky is because of the lack of a control scheme like the Wii's. It had to be completely scripted. (In Lego Star Wars this actually works well, because it's just another puzzle element).

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
With two analog sticks, one for position of the cursor (so you hold it tilted at an angle and the object is going to start moving to that position) and another for the velocity (how fast it gets to that position), it's awkward. First, you have to hold them both in the same direction, which really wastes half the point of an analog stick (you're losing one of the four dimensions x1,y1,x2,y2, effectively).

Why would you have to do that?

Just the right analog stick to position the crosshair on the screen, then use the left analog stick to throw it. Leave the left centred until you want to throw it, then if you want to lightly lob it press it up slightly, if you want to toss it hard throw it up fast...

Also, as I mentioned, you can't move your character now, because you're using both sticks (and both thumbs, so you can't press anything on the d-pad or abxy, you're stuck with shoulder buttons only).

So when you're throwing a rock you're restricted to only six different buttons you can press (LS in, RS in, RB, LB, LT, RT). How awful.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Sure you can, if the game isn't one that relies on the remote and the developers put in support. SSBB will probably use the gamepad.

Name me a single Wii game that supports the gamepad.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
The reason Force use (particularly telekinesis) is usually gimmicky is because of the lack of a control scheme like the Wii's. It had to be completely scripted. (In Lego Star Wars this actually works well, because it's just another puzzle element).

Force isn't gimmicky, the notion that it's only possible with the Wiimote is retarded, though.

You've weaseled out of it by arguing "but that's not as precise! or something similar. If Wii players are all about exact realism, why do you like a totally underpowered system with poor physics, AI, and graphics?

[Kuciwalker]

Why would you have to do that?

Just the right analog stick to position the crosshair on the screen, then use the left analog stick to throw it. Leave the left centred until you want to throw it, then if you want to lightly lob it press it up slightly, if you want to toss it hard throw it up fast...

So now throwing is a two-step process, rather than just a single very natural motion with your hand.

So when you're throwing a rock you're restricted to only six different buttons you can press (LS in, RS in, RB, LB, LT, RT). How awful.

Ever wanted to reload while aiming in Halo 2? The fact that you can't use axby while aiming does limit FPS's on the gamepad.

And there's still the huge bit about not being able to move. At all.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Asher
You've weaseled out of it by arguing "but that's not as precise! or something similar. If Wii players are all about exact realism, why do you like a totally underpowered system with poor physics, AI, and graphics?

You're weaseling by trying to say I'm arguing about "realism". I'm arguing about how natural and easy it is to control something, and what you can actually do with that control. If you can't control the speed of the object very well then you can't do as much with it, such as slam it into something (causing damage) versus just dropping it somewhere else gently.

[Elok]

Don't be stupid, Kuci. LB makes the Jedi step forward, LT makes him step back, pressing both sticks in makes him give Bill Gates a telekinetic blowjob, etc. It's quite simple with an X360 controller.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Asher
Name me a single Wii game that supports the gamepad.

I don't know of any that aren't too busy innovating with the new controller. I mean, you can't exactly play a game that relies on something a gamepad-only console can't do using only the gamepad.