Ken Kutaragi replaced as president of Sony's gaming unit

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Asher
No, it's just not relevant nor does it make much sense.

It's perfectly relevant, given that the Xbox 360 doesn't have a mouse.

Force (forward movement with the Wiimote) determines how hard it's thrown, the angle it's aimed at determines where it is thrown. This is not something only possible on the Wiimote, and in fact it's been done already without it.

Only if you're throwing forwards. If you're throwing sideways, up, forwards, or some combination thereof, the Wiimote gives the best and most intuitive control. If you want to control the forward power with a mouse while also retaining up-down motion, you would probably have to use the scroll wheel. Compare this to just thrusting forwards. With the remote it would actually feel like you're reaching out and grabbing something.

And even if it is doable just as well with the mouse, as I said, the 360 has no mouse. So the 360 cannot do this, period. Analog sticks don't provide both fine control of the position AND speed of a cursor on the screen.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Asher

It's interesting that you guys have built up this game in your head that dedicates both the Wii controllers to throwing objects around.

As intensely exciting as that sound, we again come to the problem of "gameplay".

We're discussing the potential that would exist for a game like this on the Wii, that would be a lot less "interactive" on another console. How is this not gameplay?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
It's perfectly relevant, given that the Xbox 360 doesn't have a mouse.

So discussion of a peripheral that neither system has is relevant? Mmkay.

And even if it is doable just as well with the mouse, as I said, the 360 has no mouse. So the 360 cannot do this, period. Analog sticks don't provide both fine control of the position AND speed of a cursor on the screen.

Again, I don't understand why you think this needs a mouse or an motion sensor.

Utilizing both of the sticks controls movement in three dimensions. This is possible, period.

Whether it's intuitive or as easy is indeed another discussion. But so is the fact that you're proposing a game based around dedicating your controllers of throwing objects around.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Verto
We're discussing the potential that would exist for a game like this on the Wii, that would be a lot less "interactive" on another console. How is this not gameplay?

I take it you don't understand what gameplay is.

Gameplay is not a control scheme, it is the underlying game. A game that revolves around using the Wii controllers to throw objects around (let's not forget the Wii's very weak physics capabilities, by the way) is not much of a game. You'd need to map other kind of actions to the control scheme as well. For instance, what is the game.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Verto
One thing I'm not sure of is, how well the Wiimote would work if you were being a bit, shall we say, extravagant, with your dueling. What if I bring the Wiimote up, with it facing the ceiling rather than the TV screen? Would that throw it off and break up the natural flow of the game while it fixed itself?

As I understand it, the remote contains three sensors: a set a gyroscopes (lets you detect the orientation of the remote in all three dimensions), a set of accelerometers (lets you approximately detect the position of the remote, or at least the motion of the remote in all three dimensions), and the sensor bar on top of the TV, which figures out exactly where on the screen you're pointing. When you're not point to the screen you're relegated to the other two. So it would be able to tell that you were holding the lightsaber pointing up, and I think it would still be able to figure out where the lightsaber was in space.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Asher

So discussion of a peripheral that neither system has is relevant? Mmkay.


Again, I don't understand why you think this needs a mouse or an motion sensor.

Utilizing both of the sticks controls movement in three dimensions. This is possible, period.

Whether it's intuitive or as easy is indeed another discussion. But so is the fact that you're proposing a game based around dedicating your controllers of throwing objects around.

Manipulating objects is just an example of how the Wii can change the mundane, stop being an idiot.

Imagine these scenes on the 360 and the Wii:

Character runs into room, chased by Stormtroopers.

On the 360: After running into room, character turns around. On-screen symbol/hint indicates for you to use the Force to slam the blast door shut. Hit X to do so.

On the 360 After running into room, character turns around. On-screen symbol/hint indicates for you to use the Force to slam a blast door shut. Reach out with both controllers, hitting 'A' to lock onto door, and bring both controllers down. This action is reflected on-screen.

One small example, of a relatively minor part of a game.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Verto
Imagine these scenes on the 360 and the Wii:

Character runs into room, chased by Stormtroopers.

On the 360: After running into room, character turns around. On-screen symbol/hint indicates for you to use the Force to slam the blast door shut. Hit X to do so.

On the 360 After running into room, character turns around. On-screen symbol/hint indicates for you to use the Force to slam a blast door shut. Reach out with both controllers, hitting 'A' to lock onto door, and bring both controllers down. This action is reflected on-screen.

One small example, of a relatively minor part of a game.

On the 360 After running into room, character turns around. On-screen symbol/hint indicates for you to use the Force to slam a blast door shut. Hold down the left trigger to activate "force", and throw both analog sticks down to slam the door shut. This action is reflected on-screen.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Asher
So discussion of a peripheral that neither system has is relevant? Mmkay.

When similar systems have been implemented with that peripheral, and that peripheral works similarly (in SOME ways) to the Wiimote, yes.

Again, I don't understand why you think this needs a mouse or an motion sensor.

Utilizing both of the sticks controls movement in three dimensions. This is possible, period.

Not with fine control of both position and speed of a cursor. You can easily make an analog stick map directly to positions on the screen (see Star Fox 64), but then you can't control the speed at which the cursor moves well because the stick is so small. If you map the analog stick to velocity, you don't get good control of position because it takes too long to move the cursor from one side of the screen to the other.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Not with fine control of both position and speed of a cursor. You can easily make an analog stick map directly to positions on the screen (see Star Fox 64), but then you can't control the speed at which the cursor moves well because the stick is so small.

WTF? Of course you can. This happens all the time, eg in racing games you have fine precision with you you can steer your car, for example.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Asher


On the 360 After running into room, character turns around. On-screen symbol/hint indicates for you to use the Force to slam a blast door shut. Hold down the left trigger to activate "force", and throw both analog sticks down to slam the door shut. This action is reflected on-screen.

Wow, you got me.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Verto
Wow, you got me.

TEH REVOLUTION!!!!

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Asher
WTF? Of course you can. This happens all the time, eg in racing games you have fine precision with you you can steer your car, for example.

In a car you have fine control over acceleration but NOT fine (well, responsive) control over the position of the cursor - the cursor being the car in this case. For a racing game that's a good thing, since it would make no sense to be able to just chuck the car to any arbitrary position on the screen.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Verto
Manipulating objects is just an example of how the Wii can change the mundane, stop being an idiot.

Imagine these scenes on the 360 and the Wii:

Character runs into room, chased by Stormtroopers.

On the 360: After running into room, character turns around. On-screen symbol/hint indicates for you to use the Force to slam the blast door shut. Hit X to do so.

On the 360 After running into room, character turns around. On-screen symbol/hint indicates for you to use the Force to slam a blast door shut. Reach out with both controllers, hitting 'A' to lock onto door, and bring both controllers down. This action is reflected on-screen.

One small example, of a relatively minor part of a game.

You miss the true power of this - you don't need to have scripted actions like "close the blast door." You can design it so the player can pick up almost any object. Here's the difference:

Character is being pursued by Stormtroopers through a cave or canyon. There are loose rocks and boulders all over the walls of the cave or canyon.

Your version:
An icon flashes or a boulder lights up, indicating you can cause it to slip and fall and crush the Stormtroopers. You make a gesture and it happens.

Mine:
You see the rocks, decide to turn around and grab them and chuck them down, where they crush the stormtroopers.

Now imagine that in multiplayer. Doing stuff like Vader did in the duel on Bespin, without any scripting.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
In a car you have fine control over acceleration but NOT fine (well, responsive) control over the position of the cursor - the cursor being the car in this case.

Of course you do. If you didn't have responsive control over the direction of your car, what would be the point of racing games??

The point you made was you couldn't use an analog stick to determine velocity because it's not precise enough. This is simply not the case.

[Kuciwalker]

Of course you do. If you didn't have responsive control over the direction of your car, what would be the point of racing games??

I said position.

The point you made was you couldn't use an analog stick to determine velocity because it's not precise enough. This is simply not the case.

I said it couldn't finely determine both velocity and position simultaneously. It can be configured for one or the other but not both.