BREAKING NEWS: North Korea claims nuclear test!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


In the last efw hours the Chinese have balked from the kind of hard line sanctions that Japan is pushing for. China may be highly disatisfied with NK, but their behavior in the last few days shows they are not eager to do anything that might lead to war, far less a collapse of the regime.



As I told VJ, what a country can do is based simply on their power. Great Powers get away with bad behavior all the time, they always have, because they are strong. NK is strong enough to make mischief without suffering a serious slapdown unless they do something beyond the pale. Getting nukes is not beyond the pale, as the aquiescence of the world to Pakistani, Israeli, and Indian nuclear arsenals show.

None of those 3 states was ever signatory to the NPT, and peraps more important, none of those states used their nuclear programs to blackmail goodies out of other states. It was that behavior, the blackmail, that I would suggest must not be rewarded, which is something different from saying that the illegal aquisition of nukes cannot be tolerated.

[SlowwHand]

Ex****ingactly.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


In the last efw hours the Chinese have balked from the kind of hard line sanctions that Japan is pushing for. China may be highly disatisfied with NK, but their behavior in the last few days shows they are not eager to do anything that might lead to war, far less a collapse of the regime.


.

I have never said they are eager to see the collapse of the regime. What I have said is that the cost benefit of certain sanctions has changed for them, and they may be more willing to accept sanctions that RISK the collapse of the regime (though they certainly will still hope that that collapse does not happen) It seems in the last few hours that they have largely accepted most of the sanctions that the US asked for, on condition that military action be explicitly excluded from the resolution.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


There has been a "lunatic" in charge of NK for fifty years. What has changed?

Until now the "lunatic" hasnt openly defied China. This time he has, and everyone knows it.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


Why is it that both people on the left (GePap) and the right (Bush and Co) seem to think that limited nuke use would be OK..?

JM

Jon, back when I still had a full head of hair, the dangers of limited nuclear war was a very popular theme on the left. Thats when the EEVIL Reaganites were suggesting a limited nuclear war wasnt such a bad thing, and when nuclear proliferation was discussed in terms of South Africa, rightist Argentina, and Israel. Now that the EEVIL neocons use nuclear programs as reasons to invade countries and talk about Axii of Evil, the dangers of limited nuclear wars are not so great. A parallel evolution of the horrors of chemical warfare has taken place as well.

[Q Classic]

Well, they made a gamble that didn't pay off.

Most people at Vegas make the same mistakes.

(Albeit not with nuclear weapons...)

[Whoha]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Until now the "lunatic" hasnt openly defied China. This time he has, and everyone knows it.

why hasn't China done something about it? why are they defending NK in the UN?

[Dis]

since on one has posted this picture that I can see, I'll post it. Rumsfeld says it's his second favourite picture.

Not really that related to the nuclear tests, but it shows how backwards the country is. Not really backwards, they just simply can't afford to run power after 9PM.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=410158&in_page_id=1811

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by DaShi


Exactly, it's the butterflies you have to worry about.

And DRoseDARs article further contributes to my belief that there wasn't a nuclear explosion in NK. Either it failed, or they simply used enough conventional explosives to try to mimic it.

Hm, I´m still sceptical about it.
As was mentioned within the thread aftr an underground test there seems to be just a maybe 30% chance to detect radioactive particles above ground.

IMHO it could be that they successfully created a nuclear explosion,
but that the warhead didn´t produce the yield thaqt was expected by the northkoreans (for example because the plutonium didn´t have the necessary purity)

[RGBVideo]

why hasn't China done something about it? why are they defending NK in the UN?

Shhh, he's trying to rationalize the reason why the all-praised "international community" hasn't unified and *****-slapped DPRK into submission yet. Don't crush his fantasies

Donald Rumsfeld according to Daily Mail:
"It says it all. There's the south, the same people as the north, the same resources north and south, and the big difference is in the south it's a free political system and a free economic system."

The sad thing is, this isn't true. North has more natural resources than the south does. And the industrial base of the nation used to be in the North before the war.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Whoha


why hasn't China done something about it? why are they defending NK in the UN?

Are they defending them? They are verbally condemming them, and according to John Bolton they are in agreement on sanctions. They are trying to soften the sanctions somewhat, and avoid the use of force. Thre reasons for that have been well explained by others.

What will they do if the sanctions they do agree to prove ineffective, and are followed up by more defiance? We will see. Either they will have to cooperate in escalation, or they will have to accept some lose of face.

In either case one of the priniciple US goals, of showing countries elsewhere that this behavior has costs, will have been met.

[RGBVideo]

according to John Bolton they are in agreement on sanctions

I wouldn't trust him if I were you. Seems to me nobody has the will to stand up against KJI, and the Chinese are paying lip service. If the Chinese eventually agree to economic sanctions, they'll probably break them (sanctions) in an instant.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Are they defending them?

They can say "Kim, look, shut this down, or spend the winter in the dark."

In either case one of the priniciple US goals, of showing countries elsewhere that this behavior has costs, will have been met.

I do not agree with this goal, and would prefer using our leverage against china to force them to shut this down.

[LordShiva]

More and more stuff I'm hearing seems to suggest that if it was a nuke explosion, it was a failure.

[SlowwHand]

That doesn't really make it better though.