Russia vs China

[Flip McWho]

So on average the Chinese weapons are as good as the average Russian weapon then?

[One_more_turn]

Russian economy is actually doing very well since the oil price bottomed out in 1999.

China is dependent on Russia for oil and natural gas. Nobody dares to piss off Russians these days. A couple of months ago some Euros had the nerves to b**** about Chechnya, and Russian gas pipelines immediately had couple of "accidents". The Euros are silent now.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Like I mentioned, Russia can produce (or cannibalize from existing planes) engines much cheaper than China. Why spend the extra money?

You've said they can produce them. I've said they cannot. Now you are saying that they buy it from us only because they don't want to spend extra money. Great.

Because Russia already did all the R&D.

Fine, then I'm asking once again, who has the better chances in war: the side which spend a sh!tload of resources and time on R&D and infrastructure for mass-production of modern jets (and thus got a sh!tload of experience) OR the side which imports such jets?

Moreover, Russia is willing to sell its wares on other than a strictly cash basis. Russian officials have said they are willing to take payment on a counter-trade basis, meaning they would accept goods such as rubber, tin and palm oil that are in high demand in Russia.
Took me a hot 1 minute of google-fu to come up with it.

And who the hell said that? Where is your link?
Anyhow, arms dealing is like a drug dealing - "you can have your first dosage almost free of charge". You'll bring us much more cash when you'll hung-up on our merchandise: you'll have to pay us for maintenance and upgrade, for ammunition and spare parts, for training of your personel, you'll have to create an infrastructure to support your new equipment, and as long as you've invested a sh!tloads of $$$ for that purpose and taught your personel to properly use that kind of hardware, whenever you decide to buy some more weaponry, you'll prefer to buy it from us other then to other manufacturer and invest again in re-education of your personel and creation of new support facilities.

No, I think you sold them 5 brand new ones, and then licensed them the deisgn to build in-country.

Do you read my posts? They bought more than 70. And THEY DON'T HAVE A LICENSE TO BUILD SU-30.

No, but all your little cronies who either can't afford the good stuff, or don't pass the background check for western weapons have.

If those "little cronies" could afford our modern hardware, you wouldn't attack them. Had Serbia have half of a dozen of S-300, your generals would think twice before starting an air campaign.

Your missiles look like giant bottle rockets.

They targets after explosions look much worse.
Russia makes best missiles in the world. End of story.

Is that the same pile of dog**** you fed your customers(Iraq, Serbia, et al) when you sold them the systems?

We sold them what? Unfortunately for them, they couldn't buy (ever heard about UN sanctions?) modern equipment and had to rely on what they had - a 20-40 years old Soviet hardware.

And yet, at the end of the day, he knew who was worse. The Commies.

And the end of the first movie he was crying like a little girl - "oh, colonel, my country really f*cked me up".

[Lonestar]

I'll be honest, I didn't even read your post. All I saw was "Blah blah blah, I'm a dirty tramp."

[Serb]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
So on average the Chinese weapons are as good as the average Russian weapon then?

Go back to page 2 of this thread and read my long post there. The bulk of Chinese equipment is totaly obsolete. The Russians stop using such weapons long time ago. Only a small portion of their hardware are of the same quality as the standard equipment used by Russian military.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lonestar
I'll be honest, I didn't even read your post. All I saw was "Blah blah blah, I'm a dirty tramp."

Fine. The conversation is over.

[Lancer]

The Chinese are building a stealth fighter, what about the Russians? You can't hit what you can't see.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lancer
The Chinese are building a stealth fighter,

First they have to learn how to build a fourth generation fighter.

what about the Russians?

http://robocat.users.btopenworld.com/su37.htm

You can't hit what you can't see.

American strealth aircrafts are not so stealth for Russian S-300 and S-400 SAMs.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Serb
American strealth aircrafts are not so stealth for Russian S-300 and S-400 SAMs.

Will these systems be able to acquire low radar signature targets such as stealth planes if the side deploying those planes also makes use of ECM such as chaff? I'd imagine a stealth plane is tough to spot to begin with but I wonder how much harder it might be to pick out from amongst false targets like chaff.

[Lancer]

Amazing plane, Serb.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Geronimo


Will these systems be able to acquire low radar signature targets such as stealth planes if the side deploying those planes also makes use of ECM such as chaff? I'd imagine a stealth plane is tough to spot to begin with but I wonder how much harder it might be to pick out from amongst false targets like chaff.

The "big" missile [designation otherwise unknown] has a range of up to 400 km and will be able to engage "over- the-horizon [OTH]" targets using a new seeker head developed by Almaz Central Design Bureau. This seeker can operate in both a semiactive and active mode, with the seeker switched to a search mode on ground command and homing on targets independently. Targets for this missile include airborne early warning and control aircraft as well as jammers

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-400.htm

The system actually represented a bigger step from third generation systems (S-300PMU, S-300PMU-1, S-300PMU-2) than third generation systems represented to first generation systems.

The S-400 featured an unbreakable, unjammable data link from the launcher to the missile in flight.

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/s400.htm

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/s-400_pm00238001.aspx

http://www.wartechnic.ru/rus/army/systempvo/s300/text_en.shtml

The S-300 system, especially in its later forms, is probably the single most deadly threat that an aircraft would encounter on a modern battlefield. The MIM-104 Patriot is similarly advanced but the combination of longer range, specialised low-altitude search radar, larger warhead, high manoeuvrability and low probability of intercept (LPI) radar characteristics combine to make this system formidable. The difference in capability between the original S-300P system and today's S-300PMU-3 is astounding, especially in terms of range and mobility, which is a credit to the designers of the S-300.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300

[Serb]

Originally posted by Patroklos
It should also be rememebered that production capacity means little in wars between modern states. A figher jet takes the better part of a year to constuct, a ship the better part of two, and a tank a good six months if it is worth anything. It can generally be expected that one sites production sites with be smoking creaters within a month, if not less.

Standing forces at the commencement, to include reserves, are all the chips either side will be able to bring to the table.

Aside Russia, China doesn't have strategic aviation and has only a tiny number of refueling tankers (4 or 8, iirc, IL-78 purchased from Russia of course). So, even if we assume their planes will miraculously penetrate our air defences, how exactly they can reach industrial facilities (heavily guarded by world's best SAM batteries) deep inside the Russian territory? We don't take into consideration ICBMs in this scenario. Any Chinese ICBM launched to Russia will be retaliated immediately.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras
How many T-55s and T-64s does Russia have in reserve?

Hordes.

[Patroklos]

Russia's strategic air forces are similarly miserable relative to America. Once your capabilities are degraded to a certain level it is pretty much all the same, and China and Russia are under that level. And though I agree with you that Russia's hardware is overall superior to China's, China's level of readiness is much greater than Russia's. I know you will deny this as you are not capable of making any realistic judgement of your own forces, but it is a universaly accepted fact. Just get a Jane's Fighting Planes/Ship's and watch the number of pages for Russia go down year to year, with the famous Jane's assesment "operational status doubtfull" plastered across all the pages. In Jane speak that means "a rust bucket that will never fly/sail again". It is actually very sad.

In any case, neither Russia or China have a military capable of deployment outside their territory against any real threat. If China invades Russia, Russia wins. If Russia invades China, China wins.

And there is more to missiles than SAMs. You complete lack of smart AGMs and stike cruise missiles is pathetic. Similarly, your Air to Air missiles are a joke. Every chinese copy of your maritime missiles is generations ahead of the originals to include C-802s and Sunburns. I think Russia could build those missiles to the same standards, they simply don't.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Serb


The "big" missile [designation otherwise unknown] has a range of up to 400 km and will be able to engage "over- the-horizon [OTH]" targets using a new seeker head developed by Almaz Central Design Bureau. This seeker can operate in both a semiactive and active mode, with the seeker switched to a search mode on ground command and homing on targets independently. Targets for this missile include airborne early warning and control aircraft as well as jammers

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/s-400.htm

The system actually represented a bigger step from third generation systems (S-300PMU, S-300PMU-1, S-300PMU-2) than third generation systems represented to first generation systems.

The S-400 featured an unbreakable, unjammable data link from the launcher to the missile in flight.

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/s400.htm

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/s-400_pm00238001.aspx

http://www.wartechnic.ru/rus/army/systempvo/s300/text_en.shtml

The S-300 system, especially in its later forms, is probably the single most deadly threat that an aircraft would encounter on a modern battlefield. The MIM-104 Patriot is similarly advanced but the combination of longer range, specialised low-altitude search radar, larger warhead, high manoeuvrability and low probability of intercept (LPI) radar characteristics combine to make this system formidable. The difference in capability between the original S-300P system and today's S-300PMU-3 is astounding, especially in terms of range and mobility, which is a credit to the designers of the S-300.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300

thanks!

However, this only seems to address the systems abilities to deal with jamming. Chaff isn't a kind of jamming really. Chaff is deploying zillions of actual physical radar 'decoys' usually in the form of small strips of foil or treated paper. Assuming chaff was deployed which had a radar signature like that of the stealth aircraft, would the S-400 still be able to deal with that and correctly identify and target the stealth aircraft?