Russia vs China

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lonestar
The one who has been spending the past twenty years building it's infastructure and industrial capacity over the one that has been sliding back into not being important.

Building its infrastructure for manufacture of cheap clothes it's not the same as building an infrastructure for mass-production of modern jets.

Here you assume that modern Russian military hardware is more complex than, say, modern Plasma screen tvs or microwave ovens (or just modern commercial semiconductors, people like Micron and Axeclis have facilities in China. They don't in Russia.)

Of course it is. Simply because semiconductors, LCD screens and ovens are part of modern Russian jets (ok, there are no microwave ovens in fighters, but Tu-160 Blackjack has it).

Yes, because 21st China is exactly like a subsaharan African country that didn't exist a 100 years ago.

Yeah, almost

You just described what the PRC has been doing since the late 70s. Congrats!

Oh, really? And the 21st century China is sure famous for its aircrafts and have alike worldwide recognized and respected trademarks as Sukhoi, Mig, Antonov or Mil?

Not if the country that designed it (Russia) can't remove it's head from it's rectum and graps the concept of "Industrial distribution" in the modern capitalist age.

And being the world's second largest arms dealer surelly proves that, right?

Oh yeah, I hear complaints about that all the time.

No, wait, sounds like another event in Serbland.

You believe in superb quality of Chinese goods?
And who of us is living in a "sh!ttyverse"?

The most powerful and complex engine in the world is a Pratt and Whitney, not Russian. Here

In December 2005, Pratt & Whitney delivered the first flight test F135 engine to Lockheed Martin in Fort Worth, Texas.

I think the most powerful engine in the world is the Soviet D-18T (50,000 pounds of thrust), which powers the world's most powerful planes (Russian An-225 and An-124).

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/index.aspx?p=ode0017001

But that wasn't the point. My point was that Lulka-Saturn engines provides a "superagility" feature for Russian aircrafts, it's something that your fighters lack.
The rough power is nearly meaningless, as long as we talk about manoeuvrability.

Depending on a maneuver to be performed, the nozzles can be deflected both synchronously and differentially. The biggest problem with the implementation of the TVC nozzle concept, that has still not be resolved by the Americans, was to provide the nozzle reversal joint with a seal strong enough to prevent outblast of the gases with a temperature of almost 2,000 oC and pressure of 5 to 7 kgf/cm2. The AL-31F and AL-31FU engines are fully interchangeable; in other words, all the derivatives of the Su-27 and the base aircraft may be powered by the AL-31FU engine.

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/Su-37-2.htm

Believe what you want, but Russia has always been a big believer of quantity over quality, and while they have been able to turn out some really good weapons in numbers (T-34,T-80s) America has proven to be able to produce weapons systems much better than their Russian counterparts, and with almost no affect on the production line.

Yeah, and one of those advanced weapons systems was a composite bow and arrows with expolisive warheads that let Jhon Rambo easily blow-up to pieces Soviet T-72 tanks in Rambo-3! Your engineering rox!

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Serb

Building its infrastructure for manufacture of cheap clothes it's not the same as building an infrastructure for mass-production of modern jets.

Good thing China has fabrication sites for modern equipment. How else would they be able to build stuff under license?

Of course it is. Simply because semiconductors, LCD screens and ovens are part of modern Russian jets (ok, there are no microwave ovens in fighters, but Tu-160 Blackjack has it).

China fabricates modern semiconducters, at best Russia gets their semiconducters from over seas, at worst they try to make thier own. China has the know-how to build anything Russia builds.

Yeah, almoust

Yeah, because there are all kinds of Africans countries that build and design their own weapons systems.

No, wait, there's just the one.

Oh, really? And the 21st century China is sure famous for its aircrafts and have alike worldwide recognized and respected trademarks as Sukhoi, Mig, Antonov or Mil?

Russia can beat China on deals because they alsmot always offer to fabricate it in-country, and they are willing to take trade goods(Palm oil, etc) China(who apperently has two brain cells to rub togather) demands hard cash.

And being the world's second largest arms dealer surelly proves that, right?

Bingo. Russia is real good at selling stuff that was built 15 years ago, or licensing the design. Builidng new stuff in Russia? Nope.

You believe in superb quality of Chinese goods?
And who of us is living in a "sh!ttyverse"?

Compared to Russia, which has so many "oops" wiht big imporant weapons systems (SSGNs and whatnot), yes...yes I do.

But that wasn't the point. My point was that Lulka-Saturn engines provides a "superagility" feature for Russian aircrafts, it's something that your fighters lack.
The rough power is nearly meaningless, as long as we talk about manoeuvrability.

So? What's the score of Russian vs. Western AAMs in the last twenty years? I believe Russian AAMs have not successfully downed a Western Plane since Vietnam. And there has not been a real "dogfight" since then. Come back and wake me when you can outmanoeuvre a Western AAM.

Yeah, and one of those advanced weapons systems was a composite bow and arrows with expolisive warheads that let Jhon Rambo easily blow-up to pieces Soviet T-72 tanks in Rambo-3! Your engineering rox!

Who do you got for your Cold War Hero? Omega Red?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lonestar

Good thing China has fabrication sites for modern equipment. How else would they be able to build stuff under license?

They assemble stuff there. And when they try to design something on their own using foreign blueprints, they still buy from Russia such key components as engines for their planes. If they had a fabrication sites for modern equipment they wouldn't be so dependent on Russian deliveries.

China fabricates modern semiconducters, at best Russia gets their semiconducters from over seas, at worst they try to make thier own.

You think Russia uses foreign semiconductors in its weapons?

China has the know-how to build anything Russia builds.

In this case, why they spend billions of $$$ each year to buy Russian hardware? Why not to build your own, if you can?

Russia can beat China on deals because they alsmot always offer to fabricate it in-country, and they are willing to take trade goods(Palm oil, etc) China(who apperently has two brain cells to rub togather) demands hard cash.

Oh, sh!t.
Honestly, I'm really tired of your BS. Get sober, already.

Bingo. Russia is real good at selling stuff that was built 15 years ago, or licensing the design. Builidng new stuff in Russia? Nope.

You think Su-30 we sold them were build 15 years ago?

Compared to Russia, which has so many "oops" wiht big imporant weapons systems (SSGNs and whatnot), yes...yes I do.

No more questions.

"I believe in superb quality of Chinese goods" by Lonestar, is a great sig material.

So? What's the score of Russian vs. Western AAMs in the last twenty years? I believe Russian AAMs have not successfully downed a Western Plane since Vietnam. And there has not been a real "dogfight" since then. Come back and wake me when you can outmanoeuvre a Western AAM.

And Russia fought vs. any western country in the last twenty years?
Russia has world's best missiles. We can shot your planes down long before we'll be in reach of their missiles.

Who do you got for your Cold War Hero? Omega Red?

You'll be surprised, but it's Jhon Rambo (from the "first blood", of course, two other movies = total sh!t) - the guy totaly f*cked-up by his country. A totaly crushed opponent who have lost his war, got his arse kicked and decided to get some practise on much weaker foe than Soviets, like American police, National guard and US Army.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Serb

They assemble stuff there. And when they try to design something on their own using foreign blueprints, they still buy from Russia such key components as engines for their planes. If they had a fabrication sites for modern equipment they wouldn't be so dependent on Russian deliveries.

Like I mentioned, Russia can produce (or cannibalize from existing planes) engines much cheaper than China. Why spend the extra money?

You think Russia uses foreign semiconductors in its weapons?

Sure. There are very few "super-secret" semiconductors out there, and they are mostly Crypto-related and fabricated on-site at places like NSA. I'm sure Russia has something similiar, but for avionics? Please. Cheaper and more reliable to just buy 'em in bulk.

In this case, why they spend billions of $$$ each year to buy Russian hardware? Why not to build your own, if you can?

Because Russia already did all the R&D.

Oh, sh!t.
Honestly, I'm really tired of your BS. Get sober, already.

Moreover, Russia is willing to sell its wares on other than a strictly cash basis. Russian officials have said they are willing to take payment on a counter-trade basis, meaning they would accept goods such as rubber, tin and palm oil that are in high demand in Russia.

Took me a hot 1 minute of google-fu to come up with it.

You think Su-30 we sold them were build 15 years ago?

No, I think you sold them 5 brand new ones, and then licensed them the deisgn to build in-country.

No more questions.

"I believe in superb quality of Chinese goods" by Lonestar, is a great sig material.

Knock yourself out. Make sure you included the "compared to Russian-built weapons systems" sentence though.

And Russia fought vs. any western country in the last twenty years?

No, but all your little cronies who either can't afford the good stuff, or don't pass the background check for western weapons have.

Russia has world's best missiles.

Your missiles look like giant bottle rockets.

We can shot your planes down long before we'll be in reach of their missiles.

Is that the same pile of dog**** you fed your customers(Iraq, Serbia, et al) when you sold them the systems?

You'll be surprised, but it's Jhon Rambo (from the "first blood", of course, two other movies = total sh!t) - the guy totaly f*cked-up by his country. A totaly crushed opponent who have lost his war, got his arse kicked and decided to get some practise on much weaker foe than Soviets, like American police, National guard and US Army.

And yet, at the end of the day, he knew who was worse. The Commies.

[LordShiva]

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/49960/russian_su_37_super_flanker_fighter_showing_manuv/

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Serb


If you think that you've said something funny, you simply have no idea about modern arms market. Every importer of hi-tech equipment makes a little patches in it to prevent that equipment being used in military conflict against the manufacturing country.
In case of war between Russia and China every plane we sold to them will malfunction and go down when it will recieve a FOF signal from any Russian plane.

I never say anything funny.

[Patroklos]

Compared to Russia, which has so many "oops" wiht big imporant weapons systems (SSGNs and whatnot), yes...yes I do.

To be fair, China is hardly anyting to look up to when talking about weapons mishaps, especially submarines. There was that disaster of their SSBN pogram and they recently lost a sub. Then there is the fact that after 30 years of trying to produce a nuclear sub, they have yet to make anything more than a useless novelty item that would be hard pressed to take on the Nautalis let alone an Akula/Los Angeles/Virgina.

[Flip McWho]

Moreover, Russia is willing to sell its wares on other than a strictly cash basis. Russian officials have said they are willing to take payment on a counter-trade basis, meaning they would accept goods such as rubber, tin and palm oil that are in high demand in Russia.

Umm whats wrong with doing that?

[Patroklos]

It should also be rememebered that production capacity means little in wars between modern states. A figher jet takes the better part of a year to constuct, a ship the better part of two, and a tank a good six months if it is worth anything. It can generally be expected that one sites production sites with be smoking creaters within a month, if not less.

Standing forces at the commencement, to include reserves, are all the chips either side will be able to bring to the table.

[Saras]

How many T-55s and T-64s does Russia have in reserve?

[BeBMan]

They also have black helicopters (Ka 50) with Sam**** (no joke) thermal image systems

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by BeBro
They also have black helicopters (Ka 50) with Sam**** (no joke) thermal image systems

I prefer the "Havoc" myself, of course, that may be just because I play it in BF2.

AH-1Z ftw!

[MRT144]

i love how serb gets all pumped up about theoretical wars and fights them on singular plane to plane levels.

[Lonestar]

And he really approaches it from thw wrong angle, too. What he should be doing is listing Far Eastern distrcit OOBs instead of trying to defend the quality of Russia's Weapons systems(The best of which will be as good as the best of China's)

[Serb]

They best they have as good as the average Russian.